A reality check: Transforming property transactions in Wales

Conveyancers in Wales have told Legal News Wales they want to see transformation in property transactions - and are keen to collaborate to progress. While the property sector in England seems to be moving slightly faster, we are aware of persistent myths around connectivity in Wales and perhaps a misunderstanding about what can be achieved today to help all stakeholders move forward, so we called in the experts. 

In this episode, our host, Emma Waddingham (Legal News Wales) speaks to Angela Hesketh, Head of Government and Public Affairs at PEXA, and Sally-Anne Skinner, CEO at Ogi - the connectivity specialists in Wales.

They discussed why connectivity is not the blocker, and why it's important for conveyancers in Wales to join the pilot scheme to help build confidence fast.

They discuss:

• current state of Welsh connectivity and what it enables;
• what PEXA does for funds, title and fraud control;
• differences in England and Wales and why mindset matters;
• costs, access routes and low-risk starting points for small firms;
• digital identity as a near-term, high-impact change;
• practical pilots: cash purchases, lender onboarding, evidence, and;
• Legal News Wales' stakeholder engagement exercises: who needs to be at the table and why co-ordination wins.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage For Change

Emma Waddingham, Host 0:03

Welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast, conversations with the people driving stronger, smarter and more sustainable legal practices. I'm Emma Waddingham, editor of Legal News Wales, and in each episode I speak with trusted voices to inspire the legal sector, sharing advice and lived experiences across leadership, growth, technology, finance, compliance, culture, diversity, client care and more. Together we'll explore what it really takes to build resilient law firms and a legal sector that makes a difference, not just for clients, but across communities. Thank you for tuning in. Before we begin, don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com. So today we're focusing on the progress of digital property transactions in Wales, where we are, what's holding momentum back, and what practical steps could move us forwards. This is not a conversation about flicking a switch and transforming the system overnight, but it's part of the movement of the process, and particularly to understand where we are in Wales. Digitising property transactions is complex. It requires coordination across government, professions, infrastructure, technology, consumers, of course, and importantly a shift in mindset as well as the technical details. It's involved task forces, pilots, integration challenges, and cultural change. It hasn't been perfect, nothing is when it comes to transformation. But Wales is now at an important decision point. So today is very much about moving the narrative from why change is difficult to how change can begin. It is about separating myth from reality, and my two guests today will help me to understand what is already possible. So I'm joined today by Angela Heskith, Head of Government and Public Affairs at PECSE UK, who is closely involved in the digitisation landscape across England and Wales and works with the residential property sector and conveyances on a day-to-day basis. And Sally Ann Skinner, CEO at Oggy, who is helping transform digital connectivity across Wales. Angela, Sally Ann, thank you both so much for joining me.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 2:09

Lovely to be here today. Thanks for having us.

Emma Waddingham, Host 2:13

Thank you. So I thought it would be really useful for both of you to outline your respective organisations. Tell us a little bit more. Angela, could you tell us a little bit more about PEXA and where we are at the moment?

What PEXA Actually Does

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 2:24

Yeah, certainly. So PEXA is an infrastructure that sits in the middle of a property transaction and effectively deals with the movement of funds and the lodgement of title with land registry. So it it complements and secures the conveyancing process and enables you to be able to be confident in relation to that movement of funds, give confidence to your clients in relation to that management of fraud and all of those things that today take so much time in relation to making sure that funding is in place, making sure that it's safe, make sure it moves in the right direction, and also ultimately getting that lodged with land registry and ensuring that your title is secure as well. So it's it's an interactive workspace which for the first time brings lenders and conveyancers together in one space to be able to deal with that secure element of the transaction together with the integration with land registry as well.

Emma Waddingham, Host 3:31

Thank you. Um Sally Ann, tell us a little bit more about Augie. I'm sure lots of people have seen Augie everywhere, everywhere you go in Wales, but um may not fully understand uh your role um and position in terms of that connectivity piece.

Wales’ Connectivity Reality

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 3:45

Yeah, so Augie is a Welsh telecoms company, effectively. We've been building full fibre broadband across South Wales. Um, we're vertically integrated, which means we build network, but we also sell on our own network. So the network is a network that's used for Ogi by Ogi. Um we sell uh consumer services, broadband services across South Wales. We also have a business-to-business division called Ogi Pro, where we offer connectivity and additional managed service products to uh businesses in and around the region. And we also have a high-speed network um which we call the trunk route. It is based on the Welsh Government trunk routes, and it spans from Cardiff to Bristol, and that's a high capacity network where we serve the likes of the hyperscalers to bring connectivity into Wales from England.

England vs Wales: Mindset Gap

Emma Waddingham, Host 4:37

Fantastic. Thank you. And that and that's really why to bring you both together is so important for us because this conversation is very much about you know how what the blockers might be. There is a little bit of a myth sometimes coming out that we aren't very well connected in Wales and that that that you know all of the why bother with some of the technology pieces because we can't get online, our consumers, our clients from law firms can't get online. And I think there's a there's a really good opportunity here to talk about the realities of that. Again, it won't be perfect. What's coming up, what's coming up ahead. Um, and perfectly positioned to do that. So Sally, and thank you very much for joining Angela and I to talk about um these some of these issues. Um I'm gonna start straight off with what's happening um and the differences perhaps between England and Wales when it comes to the progress of digitising property transactions. Um, Angela, you had a fantastic road show um in Wales last year. Um, is there uh a divergence perhaps um in terms of the progress here in England and Wales and why and why is that?

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 5:42

Yeah, I think there's a a huge amount of focus at the moment in um particularly England, and you know, we we the translation to Wales doesn't seem to be landing, is probably the way I'd the way I'd talk about it. We're looking very much at the moment about how we can bring the various digital processes together, and property is a really key area in this, and how how we can look at a particular use case because it's so important, there's so many stakeholders involved, it's so high value to the individual and to lenders as well. So there's a lot of debate. We've had the home buying selling consultation, which is talking about that digital agenda, we've had the um CFIT coalition, which is the Centre for Finance, innovation and technology, looking at the process and what we're going to do. And also we've got the Departments of Business and Trade very much involved in this smart data guidebook and how are we going to deal with that aspect. And there's there's a lot of this is all connecting together at the moment and making a much better environment going forward. We're evolving, it will take time, as you said, but there's a definite ambition and energy behind it. But then we when we move into Wales, there seems to be a much wider resistance to this. That it's what can work in England is not going to be able to work in Wales for a long time. And I think for me, it's very much we're all in the same land registry, we all have the same challenges from that perspective. In relation to digitization of individual bits of information, it's across all local authorities and land registry that we're looking at improving that. That will take many, many years. So that's you know, and but it's go it's evolving. And I think the most important thing is that we continue to evolve with it. We don't think we're in Wales, it's going to be more difficult, therefore we could we won't do it because the risk is you're on the outside of that conversation. And this is moving. We're in a digital environment, we're in a um a digital age, and we have a government who has a lot of ambition in that area. And okay, there may be changes in government, but I don't see that changing because that is something that we can take externally, we can take to other jurisdictions, and we want to be ahead of the curve. So we don't need to build the whole the whole um city and all of the roads into it to be able to move along a road and do something. And that's yeah, we can get started. We can get started because if we think it's all gonna have to be ready before we can actually get ourselves on the road, we will never get there. The reality of it is we'll be left behind. So that's the way I would say it. You know, we we really need to, yes, there may be challenges in the same way as we talk about challenges, for example, for vulnerable consumers or people who aren't tech savvy. And we have, yes, we have those challenges, but that is not going to stop the main driver of where we're going. And it's really important that we all have that involvement to build the right thing across England and Wales, so it's not in silos and it's not pocketed.

Emma Waddingham, Host 9:19

Absolutely. And I think, you know, having spoken to conveyancers, heads of conveyancing teams recently in Wales, that the momentum, the energy is there. They want this to happen. They're not resistant to that. I'm sure there may well be pockets that that are, but or may need more information, which is part of this process. But um, the reality is they are keen and so hoping that for stakeholders to come together. Um, of course, it goes without saying we are in the middle of a warm-up to an election in Wales and a seismic change at the Senate. However, I would say all the parties um involved with putting candidates forward have all put digitisation very much at the top of their agenda. So this is this is uh you know, it's it's across all parties and across all industries as well, actually, you know, in terms of that change. So all of these challenges are very similar to the the the change, the transformation um challenges that would would affect any other industry as well in Wales, um in terms of you know that that making sure that everyone is up to speed and that we have that kind of digital literacy as, as you say, amongst consumer base.

Infrastructure Myths Debunked

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 10:27

I think on that point, what I would say is, you know, this is this is it's bigger than us. It's much bigger than us, isn't it? You know, I mean whether you're talking about digital identity, um, whether you're talking about how um communication goes across different systems, the guidebook, for example, on smart data is not property related, it's economy related. It's just that property is a certain aspect of it. So, yeah, absolutely. The the dialogue and the the is changing and it's it's just and I I think I think actually people are much more eager at that practitioner level than perhaps as you go through the extra layers because it feels like it's harder in those, you know, whether that's in within local authorities, whether that's uh with the various different trade associations, whatever. It seems to be more of a how are we going to work our way through at that level, rather than necessarily the practitioners who ultimately will be using whatever they can to make themselves more efficient and more effective and to provide a better service to their consumers.

Emma Waddingham, Host 11:34

Absolutely. Um, Sally Ann, this is probably a conversation that Auggy finds itself in quite a number of times. Is that is that the case? You know, you know, in terms of the hard evidence that you have on the ground, you you you you can see the network, you can see the problems with the networks, but also the improvements that are being made. And I think what's quite interesting um that some of the conversations Andrew and I have had offline is that that can't be the reality. Um, and I wondered, I know we're skipping ahead slightly in terms of our conversation, but I wondered if there is that persistent narrative that connectivity is a major barrier in Wales. How accurate is that?

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 12:13

Yeah, I mean, I find it, I actually find it quite surprising. I mean, the the infrastructure is is is further ahead than than that narrative would suggest. You know, gigabit capable connectivity in Wales is on a par with England. 78% of Wales has access to gigabit capable connectivity. Um, and we're ahead of Scotland. So um, and actually with super fast covering prior to Gigabit, we'd had something, I think 97% coverage of Superfast, which is up to 30 meg. Um, and this was this way back when. So I don't I don't think Wales, uh I don't think Wales is behind. You know, I I think actually Wales is is very, very innovative in terms of of how we go about um operating as a nation and utilising the services that we have. I think it it's interesting what what Angela's saying, because I think, you know, kind of perfection hampers progress, doesn't it? Yeah. And you kind of think, look, Wales, like England, like like Scotland, like like all of the British Isles, I'm sure, you know, we are mixed geographies, we've got cross-border flows, we've got businesses of all different shapes and sizes with different digital capability, and actually one size doesn't fit all. But but it doesn't actually have to. I think there is so much uh choice now from a network and infrastructure point of view, you know, from Ogi's perspective, you know, we know we've got our network, we know what that network can provide. Uh it's about now creating resilience to that network. What are the other opportunities for people to utilize um our capability? There is so much choice for consumers now. You know, we that the the Ogi network is one of many networks that have been built in South Wales. Um, and it's it's people having the confidence to understand how they engage with that infrastructure to use it to their advantage. So um, you know, I do not think um, from my perspective, that Wales is behind in terms of our infrastructure. Um that wouldn't be my perception of it.

Emma Waddingham, Host 14:10

Good. Okay, so that's so um, and when we were looking at, I mean, so some of the feedback I've heard across the many events that we all attend when it comes to tech, and particularly in the legal sector um uh around technology, and a lot of the rural communities will be servicing people, you know, on the high street. We've probably not got any banks on the high street yet left, but we've probably got two or three solicitors that are very much a part of the community there. Um, and we'll be engaging with their consumers to understand some of their challenges. Um and some of those are reporting, you know, it's difficult for us to envisage a time where we can do all of this as a huge burden for us to do this digitally. Um, and maybe that's where some of the resistance or the feedback has gone in and is being communicated elsewhere. Um that's quite different, isn't it, to having availability of a network.

Cost, Scale And Small Firms

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 15:02

That's about being able to utilize services from a digital perspective. And it is expensive for smaller businesses. You can understand why the bigger companies they invest in these things, they might have internal IT. There's things that they can do to really drive those digital processes. Smaller businesses, it's expensive, you know, to create those processes. But I don't think it's about there not being the infrastructure or the technology there, but it's the investment that some of these businesses have to make to engage with it. And and that's and I think that comes back to this one size doesn't fit all. And you know, if we wait to have a solution to a problem, we'll be waiting for a very long time. Um so that would be my sort of perception on that. But sorry, Emma, I sort of no, you I mean you hit the nail on the head, isn't it?

Emma Waddingham, Host 15:47

This is it, it's about the investment. And and I think all of these conversations, Angela knows this from the the many events that there are, it it does come back to this very um sometimes unpalatable point of having to spend the money to invest. You know, there's a whole conversation that we're having in a few weeks' time around AI. Uh, and that's just a part of a tool of the solutions available to us. And um, and it is that seismic change that is leading businesses of all types to have to invest and possibly quite quickly to catch up. Um, however, as you say, if we wait till we have this kind of perfect moment where everybody has the tools and resources, my goodness me, we've probably moved on, you know, already in terms of the the technology that's available. Sorry, Angela.

Digital ID And Practical On-Ramps

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 16:33

Um No, no, that's okay. I mean, I think the thing is if you wait for the solution and the and the and the perfect time, the solution will have changed and the perfect time will have changed. That's that's just the way that's the the the the way of the world, isn't it? So I don't think that's practical. But also I suppose the question is again, similar to the we haven't got the connectivity narrative, you've then also got the how much will it actually cost narrative, haven't you? There's this feeling that you're gonna have to have this absolutely amazing system that you'll have to bring in and sit it on your desk, and goodness knows what that's gonna look like and what it's gonna cost you. But in reality, it's not that. In reality, when you look at when you break it down, let's give an example digital ID. We will all have a digital ID within the next 12 months, two years. We we already have um in so many areas of our lives, whether we're using it in banking or whatever, that will become the norm. And there may be different levels of that that are required. So, you know, if you're gonna buy, I don't know, a buy a bottle of wine in Sainsbury's, you're gonna need a different level to whether you're gonna buy a house. But never mind, it will be accessible and very clear what that is and what that's required, and it'll layer it up. And that's nothing that a law firm or an individual user necessarily will have to invest an awful lot of money in. It will be the way we deal with things. The digitization of data in in um local authorities and things, again, will just make that more accessible. So, however, you receive your information now, it will just be a lot quicker and a lot more accurate. So you you're unlikely to see any difference. When you look at something like PEXA, digital settlement platform, you can access that. You don't have to have it fully integrated with any case management system or anything like that. You can choose to do it that way, to Sally Ann's point. You know, if if you want to do the full um bells and whistles and do a full integration program, yes, okay, that will be available. There'll be availability to develop your case management to do that as well. But there'll also be a direct access that isn't going to cost you any more any more money at all, other than what you use on that system. And that's the key, isn't it? Accessibility actually will become much more straightforward depending on what digital service you want to use. And it will be the norm. So actually trying to access those services in the old way will become redundant ultimately in so many ways it which is very similar to what we've seen in many other parts of our lives that we just think are natural now and it's just what we do. And I'd say I would use banking as an example, you know. As you say, if there's no banks on the high street, so that doesn't mean that nobody's using a bank, they're using it in in a different way, and they may or may not like doing that. That's a different debate, but they do it on a daily basis and it's access accessible. And this is exactly the same, it's just looking at it from a different lens. It doesn't have to mean a huge amount of investment. Some will do that, some will just use a a UX, they will they will go in and they'll go straight into a user experience directly into that digital system. So I think you know, and that's that's it replicates the way different law firms operate today. They don't all use the same system and go in the same way, and they'll find the right avenue into that digital world. But what's really important is that they have a voice in that. And they don't feel they don't feel that they can't or shouldn't because there's this sort of financial barrier or some other barrier, whether it's connect connectivity or whatever, that's stopping them. It's because we need to we need to get rid of that that thought and have some real proper conversations about what what that actually is and how you can assess it.

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 20:50

And promote that agility, isn't it? You know, to your point, you know, if you design something and it becomes outdated really quickly, and you're also designed into the sort of lowest common denominator, it just slows progress for everyone, I think, and it and it limits that innovation. And actually, you know, I think in these scenarios, it's it is about agility. And you know, many organizations adapt to things once that they see solutions working in practice, whether that's for them or for for others, you know, and that doesn't have to be one size fits all, as I said earlier. So I think I think that's right.

Emma Waddingham, Host 21:22

Absolutely. And and I'll and also then maybe so you know, it's so easy to nitpick on well, this isn't working properly, or we're not at this level to be able to move forward. So whether it's you know, myths or feelings around connectivity, or um, you know, when it's so easy for Chinese whispers to spread, isn't it? Oh, I heard that and so that must be true. Um, but then that to me comes back to mindset around change. So rather than we we're constantly sticking on the challenges rather than moving forwards. And as I say, the my my my daily conversations with individuals, and particularly in the run. Up to a um a round table that we'll talk about at the end of this podcast is that actually they do want change. Of course, they want change. They want their business to be more efficient, they want their services for their clients to be better and to offer them greater value, which is that um experienced legal lens on a on a matter and that support for their clients, not the administrative side perhaps. Um, and so does it is it, I mean, Angela, you know, probably there's there's still that issue across all the nations in terms of mindset. Is there something that we could be doing more in Wales? What do you think that we could do more? Is it about that engagement? Is it about that education piece?

Client Expectations And Trust

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 22:41

I think I think it is, and I think we we are all resistant to change because it feels uncomfortable. We have different levels, everyone has a different level. Some people feel like to feel uncomfortable and therefore they're they're more likely to go with change. But generally speaking, particularly when you're in a very busy um regulated business that is trying to do the best for your client, you want it you want something that tells you this is the right time to do it. And if there's too many voices saying the reasons why not, then why would you, you know, at the end of the day, you want to go, you want to do it when it's safe. But I think there is there is an important point here that that engagement piece, there needs you need to find a place for that within your environment, you know, what whatever you are, to at least have a lens on that to see what level of engagement is reasonable for you. And also, let's be honest, what are your clients going to expect from you going forward? Are you going to, you know, are most most people now in that, and we're not talking about the very young, we're talking about, you know, the the pretty mature will expect a high level of return and service, and they'll they'll expect to know what's going on, and they'll they'll compare you whether you feel it's it's right or not, to other things that they do, and they have much better experience because they they can see it, you know, whether that's booking their holiday, whether that's um, you know, it doesn't matter. There's so many things that we do every day: booking trains, booking hotels. People talk about Amazon and everyone gets really upset about it, but it's it's not really the fact that you've got booking hospital appointments. Yeah, you can see it, you know where where it is and you know where to go to find it, and you've got confidence and trust that what you're seeing is correct. And we are we need to be able to supply that. And the expectation is there. It's it's difficult when you're dealing with consumers who are not in the mix very often. I mean, we're now, you know, people don't move very regularly. On average, now they're saying every 20 years, you know, that's a long time. So they don't know what good looks like, but they know what bad looks like. And that I think that's that's the point, isn't it? And you've got to be able to look at how you can step that up and meet that expectation in a way that isn't going to cripple your company by a hundred phone calls a day, or goodness knows what the and and I know that's a that's a my a very minor number of calls, by the way, for most for most law firms, but it's finding another way that people can trust in what they're doing and access that information. And digital provides you with that, so it enables you to continue to do what you're doing, but but also give the consumer what they expect and want. And as I say, it's very difficult for a consumer to say what they what they want because they're not there often enough, but what they do say, and we see it all the time in property is what they don't like. You know, there's always this negativity. Everybody's got a war story about property, haven't they, and how horrendous it was, and how long it went on and what they didn't know, and uh etc, etc. In fact, as soon as you say property, everybody wants to tell you that story. But to be to be able to turn that around and show what you can actually deliver without people really thinking about it, I think it's that. No one's going to come and pat you on the back, by the way. No consumer's going to come and go, oh, amazing, because they just think that's what what the world's expected, isn't it?

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 26:36

Well, yeah, that's what we say that and and maybe it should be, you know, that's the thing, right?

Emma Waddingham, Host 26:40

So Sally Anne , and I've heard this on a number of occasions u at different events. The difference that you're making in the communities in Wales, because uh correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Ogi started from almost like the outside in, so the rural areas coming in. It's only just recently, really, in those in the city, um uh particularly in Cardiff. And the impact that Ogi's had on the community, hearing those positive feedback, has been I I think there was a story that you know somebody was tampering with one of the boxes and it happened over and over and again. Um, and the local community, obviously so grateful and value that connectivity, reported it because we're not having this, you know, they've come in, they've helped us, they've connected us, and now some idiots come along and tried to tamper with the boxes. And I just thought, actually, that was such a joyful story to hear. .

Community Impact Of Better Connectivity

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 27:34

We did really get the community behind us on that one. And I think, you know, somebody, you know, now somebody knocks out your connectivity. That's a big issue, right? Because your whole family's like your kids are on the phone to you, oh, how can he working? You know, everyone goes into a state of panic. And I think, you know, when we're working in these communities, we're putting this stuff in with love and care, and you've got the Ogi vehicles everywhere. But a lot of the guys that work at Ogi live in these communities, so people know them. And so, you know, they really care about providing that service, and they really care about so that that was a lovely story, actually. I mean it's not so lovely for the tampering of the next.

Emma Waddingham, Host 28:10

No, no, no, no, we don't like that. But but that's you know, and I think that relationship between you know going back to that region or high street firm, they're in the community, offering that to local people, they probably have kids at school together. It's a similar experience.

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 28:29

Yeah, it's a it's a good thing. It's a good thing to keep it local, I think.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 28:32

Absolutely. I think that's the other thing sometimes about digital, isn't it? Um, it feels as if for a lot of people, it can feel as if you're losing that. I don't see it as that. I see it as a real complementary facility that you can use that enables you to actually give more of that. I mean, you know, we we talk a lot in conveyancing about people not really understanding what we need to do. A lot of the time they don't need to, but they do need to feel held and and in a in a safe environment and be aware of of what is happening and have that trust in what's happening. And if you can have tools that enable you to do that so you can just get on with what you need to do, then that to me is is a win-win because you know it all of a sudden you're dealing with consumer clients that are much happier generally, and then I think that's the way to do that.

Confidence, Skills And Agility

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 29:33

Yeah, I think that you know, digital confidence is the real challenge, not not infrastructure. Um, and that's you know, that that that is a harder nut to crack, but that's the nut to crack. So I think it's about what what what is the problem that we're trying to solve here? Is it that there isn't the infrastructure? No, I don't think so. So what is it? Okay, so what drives that digital confidence to make people feel empowered to use the technology that they've got to better serve whatever the circumstance is. And you know, we see that with the connectivity as well, you know, the digital enablement is what well and good. But if somebody doesn't have a computer at home or they don't have access to, you know, then what what what does it what does it actually do for them? And so it is about empowering people, isn't it, and businesses to to use the tooling to advantage them, but also not being stuck up by uh rigidity. I think that agility in all of these things is so important.

Emma Waddingham, Host 30:30

Absolutely. Um and so so we've cut we've covered, I mean, uh is there anything else that Sonny Ann as well that in terms of the trajectory of digitisation and the work that you're doing in Wales, is it worth um noting what lies ahead just before we move on to some of the things that we can do positively together?

Near-Term Priorities For Wales

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 30:49

Um I think from from my perspective in relation to this topic, I guess over the next six to twelve months, it's just that the focus needs to be fairly practical in terms of policy setting, piloting things, testing and learning, you know, as to what works and what doesn't work. And and also just being realistic about the narrative to your point early. 78% of Wales on a par with England has gigabit capability. We have very good coverage across South Wales and Wales in general. So it's kind of like I think we just need to catch up, our narrative needs to catch up with our reality. Yes, and we stop putting barriers in front of ourselves. Yeah, take that, you know, I and I think that's actually Wales. One of the amazing things about Wales, I think, is that we do have really strong relationships, we do have access to decision makers, we're small enough and agile enough to test quickly. I think Wales, I think our Wales business community is very innovative. So, you know, I think you know, I don't I don't see why uh we we would have challenges looking to diversify and and and maximise on you know utilisation of digital.

What’s Already Possible With PEXA

Emma Waddingham, Host 31:58

Absolutely, and that's why it was so important to bring you into this conversation, Salian, and also um in the meetings ahead to be able to maybe just just guide people through to bring them up to speed on that narrative if needed, just to stop that from being maybe part of an issue. And there are other things that we'll be looking to um to address as some of those education pieces. But um, Angela, let's talk a little bit now, let's get positive. So, what's already possible in Wales? What can we remind everybody what we can do with PEXA from the property sector from Wales?

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 32:31

Yeah, I mean PEXA is available across England and Wales. In relation to uh our accessibility, you can go by directly into PEXA, so there's no need for you to go and invest in all sorts of different things um to get that access point. In relation, we have that direct connectivity and integration with land registry. The Welsh Revenue Authority is something that we're going to come on to a little bit later, but they do have a different connectivity to HMRC. So but you can still make the payments via PEXA, it's just that we don't have the same API involvement. So suppose this is a classic example. It's still there, it's still available, we can still do it. It's not perfect, perfect, but we will work with Welsh Revenue and we'll look at how we move that on. So we can then provide well the Welsh customers with the same experience that they would get with HMRC and be able to demonstrate both ways how that is, but that doesn't mean it's not available and able to work together with. So I think that's a real classic example of okay, we work with what we've got and we make it the best we can. And then as those additional things come online, it enhances it, but it's a natural enhancement because it's then something that you're you're dealing with already, and it gives you it, it also gives you the opportunity to play and and deal with things before it's the way things are, you know, and and that can be anything within the property industry at all. It just enables you to start at a base where it doesn't, it's not the end of the world. And it is a matter of going on the journey, really, rather than feeling that you'll turn around someday and something something completely different will be there and you'll and you'll be wondering what on earth went on. You know, we we as a company and many others are evolving with the changes. So if you get on board with that, we've got such a great opportunity to bring people along and enhance things as they go. And as as I said before, nobody, when things improve, nobody tends to go, oh gosh, we didn't have to do that anymore. It's only when you actually sit back and look back to what you did 10 years ago that you think, oh god.

Emma Waddingham, Host 34:56

Yeah, absolutely.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 34:58

You know, I used to have to take my cheque in every day to get it paid in now. Now I can get a photograph of it and it's done on the phone or whatever. But they they happen, don't they? And at first they feel uncomfortable and you think, I don't even understand what I'm doing here. And then very soon it's just the norm, and you cannot imagine doing it another way. And I think that's that's the way you've got to approach it, really. It's it's it's an open-minded approach. Yes, change is always difficult. Yes, there will be challenges, yes, there will be points in time where you think, why am I doing this? This is just, you know, I don't even understand. But within a very short period of time, it becomes normal. Yeah, 100%.

Pilots, Cash Purchases And Lenders

Emma Waddingham, Host 35:37

Um, and you mentioned the Welsh Revenue Authority, who have, um, I should say as well, have been really receptive to conversations. So um there's lots of discussions coming up with them, and I'm really grateful for that as that energy as well. And and again, it's just a case, sometimes it's just a case of bringing everyone together, the right people in the room, having that conversation, um, allowing for questions to be asked, um, and outlining what can be done. And part of that is, I know we've discussed them before and we'll we'll get referred back to them, but those in those pilots um that are available to work um through the PEXA platform um to do that. And particularly, I think you were saying cash purchase as well would be a great thing to pilot through that too as we build up that information and knowledge about the system and what's working, what is change. In a similar way.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 36:26

I mean, at the moment we are promoting those cash purchases because there's less participants, you don't have to worry about where mortgage finances come in thing, uh things like that. So again, it makes it a more straightforward process. So because we've evolved from the remortgage world, which obviously is a lot more um basic, we're then moving into that cash purchase, we're then bringing on lenders. We've obviously made the announcement about NAT West, who will be transacting by the middle of this year, and there are many other conversations going on as well. But that what that means is you can evolve with it. So it's not, it's it's you know, it's not a huge beast at the moment. It's something that you could filter a couple of things through and look at how that how that works, get your systems ready, get your people ready, and then you're in a big really good place to kick on.

Emma Waddingham, Host 37:19

Yeah, definitely. And that and that's I know, as I said previously, we've we've you know, experience that PEXA has had in Australia again, it wasn't like a quick overnight thing. This is part of a pro you know that this approach is really.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 37:32

I mean, we've just we've just brought out our economic impact report to show the savings that have actually been made in Australia um over that 10-year period in relation to the economy and on all of those kind of things. But ultimately, we had to we had to do that in a jurisdiction by jurisdiction, very similar. When we're looking at England and Wales here, you know, we are lucky in lots of ways because we have the same land registry. There, they have a different land registry in every one. Well, pet pets have now got 98% of coverage across across Australia in relation to property transactions, but that has been a gradual um movement towards it, and it's about showing the value and bringing people along with it. But it's it's the similarities, there are always differences. People will always pull out the differences, but there's a lot of similarities too, and what we do is learn from the learn from the good, and ultimately the challenges we we learn from, and we step to one side and make sure it works. And this isn't a matter of a system coming over from Australia either. We have built it specifically for the UK market and within the Bank of England. So it is it is taking into account what we do here, and all of those differences are taken into account with that as well.

Learning From Australia, Built For UK

Emma Waddingham, Host 38:55

So and and and thank you. And I know that Sally Ann will um agree, Angela will agree with me too, but you know, there is um it's so important. We we're talking the day after St David's Day in 2026, and you know, the the huge fuss around uh Wales Week London and showcasing what Wales can achieve, you know, it would be devastating almost to see England progress in this quick far quicker than Wales and be lagging behind because perhaps we haven't had those conversations or those myths keep getting um shared time and time again. And, you know, um I'm sure as I say, Sally Ann, other industries, there's probably very similar conversations going on in terms of transformation that you may be on the fringe of or directly involved in. Um, you know, we need to make sure, don't we, that Wales is for not just for us, but for for us as a nation.

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 39:48

Uh uh 100%. You know, I'm sure we see digital challenges across multiple sectors in Wales, but I don't know why that needs to halt progress. I think, you know, progress sort of accelerates when when the question shifts from, you know, why won't this work to what do we need to do differently or how do we test and learn on this? You know, I don't think Wales is behind. It's just it's it's just different. And to your point, Angela, we're all different. Like what you encountered in Australia was different, but that's that doesn't mean it's not possible. And I think what works in parts of England may not translate directly into Wales, but that doesn't mean Wales has to wait. And it doesn't mean that Wales can't do it. It just means we design deliberately and we understand that maybe this whole one size fits all isn't isn't the case, and understanding the kind of different levels of maturity of organisations, organisations in Wales, and therefore how do you adopt digital systems to support that level of maturity of an organisation? Um, and as I said before, I think you know, Wales in many ways has real advantage in terms of the relationships that are formed in Wales and the network. And so, you know, it to me it it it it just seems uh implausible that we we would not be able to adopt things in a way that we could adopt it in England, for example.

Bringing Stakeholders To The Table

Emma Waddingham, Host 41:04

That's really helpful. Thank you. And I'm I'm very confident actually we're going to have um a very similar conversation ahead um towards the end of March when um we've invited, well, well, we are inviting um conveyances, heads of conveyancing teams to come together, but also with other stakeholders, um, statue bodies. Um, Angela, um I know um you're able to join us, I hope, very much at OGR2 um on the 26th of March. Um some invites have gone out, but if anyone listening to this podcast would like to be there to maybe even just to listen, to hear what's going on and to put forward their voice, that would be really helpful. We're trying to give as much evidence as possible to say, yes, this is where the legal sector is in Wales. This is what we want, these are some of the concerns that we have, but ultimately how can we work together? What's next? What's the positive next step for us in Wales and to be part of that momentum that we're seeing, um, as you say, in England as well. Um, because, you know, and not quite often a lot of meetings happen across the border that we can't get to. And so I think sometimes it's it's that it's basic geography that prevents us maybe from having a voice. So it doesn't mean there's an apathetic uh viewpoint uh from the sector. But if you the less evidence we have, the less feedback and engagement we have, you know, it's just going to be uh much slower um in terms of that progress. Um, Angela, you know, obviously we want we want that that round table is going to be really useful under Chatham House rules. Um obviously the pilots are really important and to contact you um about that pilot, and we'll share all the information on the back of this podcast as well. Um and that mindset as well. So bringing the right people in the room together, making sure that we still have those conveyancing forums that we've held quite a few of, haven't we, over the past um couple of years to make sure that they keep happening? Um, and also um you know, who else do you think needs to be involved, particularly in Wales, to make that happen outside of the conveyancing market? Is there anyone else that you think could or should be at that table?

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 43:07

Um I think this this is an opportunity across the piece, isn't it? So I I would encourage anybody involved and around that has an interest in this to be involved and come along. You know, property sits at the heart of most people's lives, it's where we live, it's what we do, and everything that we do from there comes out from the property. So, you know, whether that's energy utilities, you know, whether that's what we do with land registry, local authorities, uh Welsh Revenue, we've already mentioned anybody who has that connection with a property, either from the legal aspects or the very practical aspects, I think everybody has an ability to take something away from that. And I think we've got such an opportunity that it does to me. The heart always feels the home always feels like the heart of things. And you know, we talk about it in different ways, whether we're talking about it from a conveyancing perspective or connectivity or anything else, but ultimately it is the hub of everything, and what we need is that digital experience coming out from that and back in again as well. Absolutely.

Sally-Anne Skinner, Ogi 44:27

So you know, you want you want those people involved and engaged, don't you?

Roundtable Invite And Next Steps

Emma Waddingham, Host 44:31

Yeah, absolutely. Um and learn some lessons off the impact that you're having at a very local leg level as well, Sally Ann uh through Augie. Um thank you both so much. We will share and signposts as so the information about that round table and also previous discussions that we've had um with Angela. Um and yeah, really, really looking forward to us. I think we it just feels like we're on um, you know, we've we've gone over all of the the big hill at the top of the hill now. We can see the other side. Um and I just don't, we just don't want whales to miss out as part of that conversation. Um, and as I say, particularly in like the fact that we have got a lot of change going on, it's easy to for some conversations to be dropped off uh and be forgotten about, you know, when when you've got things like a huge election and and a lot of change going on there, um, we this is something that we can't afford to kind of put to bed for for six months. It needs to be we we need it to keep going. Um so Angela, Sally Ann, thank you very, very much for joining me this morning. I really appreciate it.

Angela Hesketh, PEXA 45:29

Thank you.

Closing Reflections And Call

Emma Waddingham, Host 45:30

It's been it's been lovely. Thanks. Nice to meet you both. Thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience podcast brought to you by Legal News Wales. If you found this conversation useful, please subscribe and share it with your colleagues. There's lots of episodes to follow and go back into. And you can also join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com for more resources to help you build a resilient, future focused legal practice.