Legal Sector Resilience

Growing a Welsh law firm with purpose: from strategy to success (Legal News Awards Special)

Legal News Wales

Awards don’t build resilient firms—clarity, culture, and client value do. This episode, our Host, Emma Waddingham, sat down with Managing Partner Fflur Jones and Partner Owen John at Darwin Gray Solicitors, winners of the Legal News Wales Business Growth Award 2025, to unpack how a simple, shared strategy powered 105% revenue growth for the law firm in two years, without losing the warmth that holds a team together. 

We explore the choices behind the law firm's rise: embracing Welsh identity and bilingual delivery, investing in SEO and public tenders to attract the right work, and expanding services where clients truly need support—from governance to wills and probate.

We dig into the firm's North Wales story: how a commitment to local presence resulting in a strong commercial foothold, how partnerships with Bangor University and sector networks unlocked opportunity, and what’s changing across food and drink, manufacturing and infrastructure. Along the way, we get practical about value and excellence for cross‑border clients—why responsiveness, quality and fair pricing travel better than postcodes—and why Welsh language services are a strategic capability, not a marketing flourish.

In order to understand how Darwin Gray attracted the attention of the Legal News Awards judges and showcased significant growth, Emma asked Fflur and Owen to share how the firm has utilised technology to support its business plans - such as AI in property workflows and the firm's trials with advanced tools like Thomson Reuters’ CoCounsel, plus the guardrails needed to protect data, train juniors, and preserve judgement. 

We also look at thought leadership as growth engine: the Governance Wales conferences, a pan‑Wales HR network, and how convening the right rooms leads to meaningful instructions. Through it all runs a theme of growth with purpose—using clear communication, CSR, and steady pacing to scale culture, not just headcount.

Subscribe for more conversations on legal sector resilience, share this episode with a colleague who cares about sustainable growth, and leave a review to tell us how your law firm is adapting and what’s working for you right now.

For more information and signposting, visit the insights section on legalnewswales.com and use the 'Legal Sector Resilience Podcast' filter.

EmmaWaddingham:

Welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast. Conversations with the people driving stronger, smarter, and more sustainable legal practices. I'm Emma Waddingham, editor of Legal News Wales, and in each episode, I speak with trusted voices to inspire the legal sector to sharing advice and lived experiences across leadership, growth, technology, finance compliance, culture, diversity, client care and more. Together we'll explore what it really takes to build resilient law fans that make a difference. Not just for clients, but across communities in Wales. Thank you for tuning in. Before we begin, don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com. As part of series two, we're including some special episodes shining a light on the winners of the Legal News Wales Awards. The 2025 awards hosted in June celebrate the people and legal practices who are raising the bar in leadership, innovation, growth, and impact across Wales. These conversations offer a chance to go beyond the awards headlines to hear the real stories of resilience, purpose, and progress that are shaping the future of the legal profession here in Wales. So, yeah, so welcome and thank you for joining me today. I've got two partners here from Darwin Grey. I have Fleur Jones, managing partner and head of the Employment Law and HR team, and Owen John, partnering the employment law team. Now, Darwin Grey are our business growth award winners for Legal News Wales Awards 2025 and will always be the first ever winner of that category. Congratulations. Thank you.

OwenJohn:

Thank you.

EmmaWaddingham:

It's such a pleasure. And what a fantastic evening. I just wondered if we could start a little bit about what that recognition means to Darwin Grey in terms of it being a brand new awards programme, but specifically for the Welsh legal sector and focusing on the business of law. Maybe just a few highlights from the evening.

OwenJohn:

Yeah, well, it means the world really. It was uh it was a fantastic evening, it was a fantastic award ceremony. Um, and the the huge credibility in those awards because of who's in the room. I mean, our category, for example, uh was stacked full of incredibly talented law firms. So to win that award um meant a huge amount to us. Um, and um we're we're very proud about it. Everybody here is very proud about it, and we've shouted about it, we told everybody we can about it, the award is sat proudly on reception out there. Um so it it meant a huge amount um for for us, particularly given who else was involved and who else we were up against.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, absolutely. And and actually, it's probably the first time that I've been able to feed back to you in person. So we have an independent judging process, as you know, um, and the interviews in person. Uh, and it everybody made it very difficult for our judges who took it incredibly seriously. So we had a mix of of partner judges, but also outrage by those independent panels. And you know, the conversations went ran over for at least an hour, particularly in that category, is very, very difficult. And and not even to kind of base it on numbers, but a lot of other aspects of that growth as well. So, this podcast, we're we're really sitting down exploring some of the um uh obviously the some of the points within the submission that people wouldn't have necessarily seen. Um, and obviously on the night, we can't go into too much detail. So, this is a really good opportunity to talk about the growth that you've had, um, not just in the past two years, um obviously established in in 2002. So there's been lots of growth um since then, based in Cardiff and in Bangor and servicing um clients across the UK. Um, but something within the um the strategy that you you uh outlined in your submission stuck out. So this the DG strategy 24 to 27 outlined some quite ambitious goals. Um, I just wondered a little bit if you could explore how that came about and also the staff engagement in shaping that strategy. Thank you.

FflurJones:

Yes, well, we um as you just mentioned, we are a law firm that was established in 2002. So we're relatively young in the history of lots of other law firms that are based here in Cardiff. But um, and as ever, lots of law firms they will start slow, you know, and they will get to a certain critical point, and there's a critical mass, and there's a need then to develop a strategy. And um, obviously, we've been through a global pandemic as well in 2000, and obviously that was a massive change um for every business throughout the land and every individual. Um, and I felt after the pandemic was kind of over, the first wave of it, that it was time to kind of regroup and take stock of where we'd got to as a firm and actually decide on a clear direction for the firm. So the strategy for 24-27 came out of a motivation to be more disciplined, really, about what we, who we were, where we're going, and what are we trying to achieve. Um, we deliberately kept it quite simple because I think most strategies that are complicated tend to fail. Um, we were lucky we were able to work with an external consultant to keep me in particular on the straight and arrow. Um, and then yes, we did hold um several uh firm-wide um sort of engagement events in order to communicate to people what our vision's vision was, um, and also to make sure that they felt fully invested in it. A lot of it was about trying to tweak some of our existing practices, but also have much better clarity in terms of who are our sort of sources of work, how do how do we get more of those types of um clients through the door, what are our strengths, our weaknesses, and so forth, and and then honing it into, as I say, a simple strategy that is ambitious nonetheless, but not something that's going to keep people awake at night worrying about how they're going to achieve it.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. And and I can imagine there's probably quite a few firms that had a similar moment after the pandemic and looked around lots of you know, uh acquisition in terms of talent and but also um clients maybe changing as well. Um, was there anything in particular that uh surprised you in terms of what the firm was looking like and achieving and where you wanted to maybe progress down an avenue for growth?

FflurJones:

Well, when we went and crunched some of the numbers and looked at our performance in general, we realized that we had quite a lot of work to do actually to get ourselves more disciplined, more efficient, um, and you know, to be more ambitious as well in terms of our outlook. Um we have a very strong uh team of marketeers. We're very lucky to have Anna Reese and Erin Phillips and Alan Saunders now at our sort of side, helping us with the sort of external facing things. So yeah, it was more actually stopping, analysing where we were, realizing there's quite a lot of small things we can do that can change things, and then thinking about the bigger picture as well, and how did we um go out and achieve that?

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. And I can imagine that lots of law firms do this, where actually you're not you're not doing yourself a sort of justice by promoting what you're doing as well in a very authentic way, which is where, as you say, having that dedicated in-house marketing team is is hugely beneficial. Um, and that we can see that over the last few years has certainly come to the fore. You know, we've had a rebrand, so obviously that rethink, refresh is has really honed um that kind of external profile as well for you all. Um, so you've seen revenue grow by 105% in just two years. Um, what key decisions have really made that possible?

OwenJohn:

Well, as Fay mentioned, that the I think the the first thing that is that we had a plan. Um, it's another thing implementing that plan, and then it's another thing entirely bringing everybody else with you. So it's fine having a plan that's uh gathering dust on a shelf, and it's fine having a plan that's in the head of partners or uh in a in a room, in a locked room of partners, but it's another thing entirely getting the entire firm to live that strategy um because you partners can't do it. Yeah, partners, partners solely can't do it. Um so I think the engagement piece um and the buy-in from a a wider team is is crucial, is is the crucial part of any strategy and plan to say having it is one thing, implementing it is another, but then bringing everybody with you, I think is is really where you where you solve this issue.

EmmaWaddingham:

Um and in terms of that growth, is that a mixture or um maybe more clients' work coming in, more efficiencies being made? Where was the balance or a bit of both?

FflurJones:

It's been both really. Um as I said, efficiencies across the board in terms of slightly better discipline in terms of some of our internal practices, but then also very much um realizing that we needed to get better at public tender wins. Um, and also ON then, in particular, with the marketing team, has been instrumental in increasing our SEO work, um, which has seen a massive growth of you know, people coming in uh by virtue of doing targeted marketing to get people in for the type of work that we want to get in. And that's also been a big difference over the past few years is the fact that now we the quality of our work is so much better. You know, lots of clients have been with us from the get-go, and we're eternally grateful to them. And you know, hopefully they're still feeling they're getting a good service from us. Um, but it's been nice as well to work out where our strengths are and um to get more of that type of work uh over the threshold.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. And that's something that I know really impressed the judges is that focus on you know, giving offering that quality of work and also for the individuals within the firm to be able to take on that work and that experience and grow and have their own personal development. Um, and it and I I wondered in terms of expanding your service offering, um, how much of a role do the clients themselves play in driving that that change and that success?

OwenJohn:

I think it did. I mean, I think it's a combination of us spotting opportunities, but also that becoming apparent from the way we interact with clients. So um governance is an offering that we've added um in in recent times, as is uh a Wheels and Pro Bay department, which is something we never had previously, which was a clear opportunity. So it's a combination of both, I think. It's a little bit of strategy and foresight and spotting opportunities, but also listening to clients and seeing exactly what clients are telling you. I mean, I think Flea, in particular, on the governance side of things, has spotted a key gap in the market in Wales, in that there's been one governance scandal after the other, and perhaps um you know that there was an opportunity there, and there continues to be an opportunity there to service clients properly, um, in a in a in a in a in a good way, um, bilingually. Um, and and the same Wales and probate, I think, uh something we didn't have for very many years as a firm, but um it is a is an opportunity that probably came about through client feedback as much as anything.

EmmaWaddingham:

Fantastic. Um and in terms of um we obviously we spoke about the numbers, um, but people as well. So how has how much has the firm grown between the two offices in terms of numbers and also promotions in the last couple of years?

FflurJones:

Well, we've been lucky to see exponential growth in numbers. Um, we were stubbornly, weren't we, Owen, sort of bumping all around the sort of 30-35 mark of numbers of people for for years and years. And I thought, well, there we go. Um uh obviously no. We decided to have a strategy and and and and a plan and communicated, as Owen says. And yeah, so now we've grown um we're past 50 uh in number um and still growing. Just made a few job offers only last week. So um and the the North Wales office in particular has been a fantastic success. It was a bit of a you know, dipping your toe in the water when one solicitor from the firm who's now a senior associate said, I want to go back to North Wales to live, if I may. Um, and it's like, yes, why don't we do that? And then instead of just saying, Why don't you work from home and come down here? We thought, no, let's let's really go for this. And over the course of three years, uh, we're now up to six people up there. Um, and they're able, they're quite strong on their sort of property side mainly. Um, but we're hoping to grow the other um disciplines up there as well. But it's been a fantastic success, and um, yeah, I don't think we'll look back from that.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, absolutely brilliant. And and what's it, what's the kind of the outlook like in North Wales at the moment in terms of what's going on in for local communities and the built environment and um and perhaps areas like governance, etc.

FflurJones:

There's a lot going on there, and there's um quite a gap in the market really, in terms of there's not a huge amount of commercial law presence there. Um, so there's a lot of concern about obviously what the inheritance tax changes have been on a sort of wills and probate side. So we have a wills and probate solicitor up there who's busily servicing clients and trying to keep up with the new changes that have come in. Uh, we've got a particular focus at the moment on the food and drink and um manufacturing sectors up there. So we're trying to work closely with those types of businesses and um you know there's a lot going on up there on that front as well. So there are some concerns about infrastructure up there that are causing the uh businesses quite a lot of difficulties. Um, but we're what we're trying to do is be, you know, on the ground and attend lots of events where businesses are, so we can understand those concerns a bit better.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, and it and it's a bit like that, you know, you see brands coming into Wales, you you have to make the effort to be within those local communities and it shows that the trade-off, the benefits of doing that.

FflurJones:

Lots of law firms have tried um to sort of go to North Wales, but unless you've got the right people who are there on the ground and are based there, I think it's impossible to be honest, because people trust, you know, those that they can see visibly in the networking events and in the community. You know, we've got a charity in North Wales we're uh supporting this year as our sort of charity of choice, and people really appreciate that. Yeah, absolutely.

OwenJohn:

And I think historically lots of uh clients, commercial clients in North Wales have ventured to Manchester and Chester and Liverpool for their legal services, particularly commercial legal services. So that that's I think an opportunity that we've felt the need to address.

FflurJones:

Um yeah, and there's a lot going on there as well with the fact that Hollyhead and the free port is on the doorstep coming coming up. Um there's M Spark on on Anglesey, and that's been expanded. Loads of really amazing innovation going on there. We've partnered a lot with Bangor University for different things, so yeah, it's it's exciting, you know, and it's it's quite nice in a way because Cardiff is quite saturated with law firms, so this feels like a golden opportunity. And obviously for me, I get to see my family when I go up there too.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely, absolutely. And so, and and obviously, probably recruiting a lot from the area too, and those universities in time, I should think.

FflurJones:

Absolutely, and we've um, as I mentioned, Bangor University, we've been offering uh students from there the opportunity to do three months with us over the summer after they've graduated when they're not sure whether they want to pursue a law career. We've got a lady with us this summer who's doing that, and we did one last summer as well. So I think it's great if we can really build this because you know we are bringing, well, we're supporting the economy and creating good jobs um in an area that you know doesn't have that many of them.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely, brilliant. Um, and obviously, with this podcast will be is launched at the Legal Worlds Conference, which is hosted at Bangor University this year. So that's really exciting and a lovely link. Um I'm looking forward to to hearing more about the work there as well as we all go together. Um, in terms of the um sorry um so I so you've spoken about being consciously invested in both Cardiff and in Bangor. Um, and I wondered if you talk a little bit more about why the Welsh identity is such a critical part of your growth strategy and your brand.

OwenJohn:

Yeah, I think it helps enormously that quite a few of us speak Welsh anyway. I mean, that's the starting point. And I think uh quite a few of us who are partners are fluent Welsh speakers and live most of our lives through the medium of Welsh. So that definitely helps a great deal. But that said, um there's another aspect to this, which is more of a strategic aspect to it. And I think most of us who do speak Welsh, and to be fair, lots of people here who don't speak Welsh, including partners who don't speak Welsh, uh see the clear opportunity that exists to service clients through the medium of Welsh. Um there are very many public sector bodies, third sector organisations, charities, organisations, even private businesses who um have a great need for legal services through the medium of Welsh. And I think our challenge, and it's one that we are we're meeting quite well, but we've got more work to do, of course, is to try and be the go-to uh Welsh language uh service provider in Wales. Um, and uh that means you know servicing through the medium of Welsh, but also bilingually. There are lots of clients who want um English and Welsh legal services alongside each other. So I think it's a it's a bit of a labour of love in the lots of us are passionate about the topic, but also it is a very good opportunity for a law firm, I guess.

FflurJones:

Yeah, of course. Yeah, and it's also um kind of for me, it's a coming of age, you know. I think for many, many years uh Welsh speakers might feel like, oh well, this this skill of mine isn't of particular use, or you know, it's great to speak in the community hall or to my friends or whatever. But actually, there's a real value in it, and also it's about being confident enough to know that you know the fact that you can provide services in Welsh doesn't mean that you're any worse at providing them in English, and it's just about being confident in being bilingual, and we wouldn't be there as Welsh speakers in the in the firm without the support of huge numbers of people here who are non-Welsh speakers but who get it and who feel that confidence as well, and realise that you know, by branding ourselves as being cavreethwir and solicitors doesn't dilute the English offering um and doesn't mean that we're less attractive to those over the border as well, because we do have a lot of clients um in London in particular and the southwest.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. And I think you know, there's a you know, having spent for a long time, uh, there uh we're not particularly good in Wales about kind of showing off about ourselves and profiling. And so, and and maybe that comes with this kind of oh, do we dare kind of push out the Welsh identity thread? But actually, um, and it's partly the reason why we launched the awards this year, there is this huge feeling, this kind of pulse, this movement of Wales on a pedestal being showcased, you know, on international stages with sport and um, you know, even things like Wrexham being bought by by Ryan Reynolds. Um, you know, but but with the women, women's sport in particular in the last kind of 12 months, um, and then businesses, things like Wales Week London, for example, I think this is just momentum of Welsh identity to to really promote. And I wonder if that gives us extra confidence as well, um, and particularly as you as you say as a bilingual law firm.

FflurJones:

Yeah, completely. I mean, I think if we don't if we don't feel confident now, when will we ever feel confident? Because, you know, also the CENEV is going from strength to strength. Um, it's gonna be controversial, I know, but it's gonna have a huge more number of uh CENEV members uh next year, which in my view is a good thing because it it it increases scrutiny on important pieces of legislation. You know, there there is a sense that Wales is coming of age, as I say, and we need to be there and be proud and realise that that does not mean that we are uh diluting anything else.

EmmaWaddingham:

No, exactly, uh uh and changing that mindset of what Wales is able to achieve. And again, part of this project is certainly what's something we want to do in Legal News Wales is to uh is to open the firms up and say, look, this is the work that we're getting, these are the clients that we have, the role that we have in our communities. Um, I think for a long time, you know, it's come to Wales and maybe give your back office work to law firm. No, no, that's not what we want to be hearing. So I think, yeah, this is a really good opportunity, isn't it? Um, and and obviously then it's obviously incredibly important for you to be recognised as a pan-Wales firm, but the clients that uh are outside and in the UK, as well as you say, spread across. Um, and I wondered, you know, what what kind of how the clients kind of respond to that message, both within Wales and and over the bridge as well.

FflurJones:

Um I think it's um completely fine, as in, you know, those over over the border, if you like, who who instruct us are intrigued, but as long as they're reassured that they're getting a good job done at a reasonable value, they couldn't give two hoots. Absolutely not. And and but they also think, well, good for you, because you know, you are from Wales and that's part of your identity, so go for it.

EmmaWaddingham:

Do you think it's easier to have conversations with clients in England to offer work from law firms in Wales? You know they used to be well, is it is it easier now to win more work across the bridge?

OwenJohn:

Well, I mean we're cheaper, aren't we? Yeah, frankly, uh better value. Better value for the better value, absolutely.

EmmaWaddingham:

There's always a value.

OwenJohn:

I think I think we've we see that we do see that with lots of clients of ours who are um in the south east and in London, they do see us as remarkable value for money. Um, and I I think it comes to the core message of what Clear was mentioning is if you provide good value for money, but crucially, if you are good at the work, then that's gonna shine through above anything, whatever language you may also speak, or whatever identity you might have. Um a client if you strip everything back, really what a client wants is excellence. You know, they they want a responsive solicitor who's gonna answer the phone, answer the emails, and provide good, excellent legal advice. And frankly, if you provide that, then uh all the rest is is is just add-ons.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely, and I I do think it's particular achievement when firms are able to do that and don't have a base in England or in London or Bristol or wherever that is. Um, you know, it just proving that point. I think a message has been promoted for a long time and it's starting to reap the reward. So um massive congratulations. Um, a little we've kind of touched on efficiency, and I just wondered whether N SEO and and and and kind of the marketing um technology, but I wondered if you've embraced any particular digital tools or technology um around your own processes or client experience that have helped with that, um with the growth that you've seen in the last couple of years. So whether that's in innovative solutions or something that seemed quite relatively simple but needed installing.

OwenJohn:

Yeah, I mean we we we are um embracing AI. For example, our property team uses an AI tool, have done for about a year now. Um, and we are next month uh trialling Thomson Reuters' Code Council, their incredibly innovative AI tool. Um so I I think in terms of innovation and and and AI in particular, we are very aware of this looming on the horizon. And I I feel quite passionately that you know AI is never going to replace us. Um, but what is possible in future is that what AI will do is split the profession in half of uh haves and have-nots, and it's not necessarily those who have got deeper pockets and those who haven't, it's a case of those who are willing to embrace technological advancements in AI and innovation and those who are reluctant to do so. So I I think you know, we would it's a work in progress. It's a work in progress. Um, we should never miss or lose sight of the the core principle of what we're about, or every law firm should be about, which is providing excellent service. Um so we'll never we'll never lose that, and we'll never want to lose that. But there's no doubt that there is a there's something looming on the horizon um that we we have to embrace.

FflurJones:

Yeah, and it's it's a very fine balance between recognising the opportunities as Owen rightly uh points out, and the you know, the ex the excitement really around it is like going back to the 60s when computers were first introduced, um, but also recognising a potential limitations and also the risks involved. So, you know, there's obviously huge concern around client data and confidentiality and the obligations with GDPR that we need to grapple with as a law firm in particular. There's also how do we ensure that our youngsters are trained appropriately so that they still get to the level of expertise that we have had through hardcraft. Um, and they because it's very easy to not really know whether what the computer's generating is is the right thing. Yeah, exactly. So we're gonna have to change the way we go about training and uh supervising and so forth. But these are things that can be sorted. Um, obviously, important to have a good policy in place and that everyone knows what our policies are. But um, as you can see, we're working through it, and um, hopefully by the end of this year, we'll be in a sort of more coherent place um on this issue.

EmmaWaddingham:

Fantastic. And we we have our next legal tech race show coming up um the in the winter, so hopefully we can invite you to maybe share some of that as well. And it's particularly around AI. And you know, we we've spoken to lots of conveyances who said the same thing. You know, we we want we want to do this here, this efficiency to enable us to do more client care. Um, but obviously then it's training, how do we then get the experts of the future who are able to um look at the nuances of what that AI is putting out? Um, but yeah, you're right, and maybe all doing it together, I think, is that um is that kind of win for the sector, particularly in Wales, working together on it. So that would be fascinating to have a look at, um, and and especially around the Thompson Reuters aspect. Um, so I also want to talk about your Governance Wales conferences and launching the Wales HR network. Um, so a lot of the uh the growth that you put out, we talked about marketing that comes with thought leadership strategies as well. Um how's that supported your business growth, like really focusing and honing in on those networks and those communities? Um, as you say, sometimes they can be quite saturated. So, what is it that you feel that you've done that's slightly different with those networks?

FflurJones:

Well, I think with the governance um aspect, this came out of um basically recognising and realizing how many organisations, public sector organizations and charities in Wales and in England, since the pandemic in particular, have had huge problems in terms of their governance organization. And also realizing because of the work that we do with senior leaders, either acting for them or acting for their organization, that the interlink between employment law problems and poor governance uh is extremely sort of uh accentuated. So we saw a gap in the market basically to bring these aspects uh together and decided to host the first conference in North Wales in May last year, um, which was also cutting new ground in the sense that it was very metro bilingual and to an extent a Welsh uh conference on this very important topic. And um we realised no other law firm really had picked up on this kind of gap, um, and that has spawned you know quite a lot of significant instructions, including uh last year I did a um uh review of the governance arrangements of S will C, for example. Um, so there's there's there's definitely a gap there that um especially possibly on the bilingual side as well, but But yeah, it's been something that um you know both conferences were really well attended, and it goes to show then that we've managed to hit a uh the right note, if you like, on this important topic.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, sounds fantastic. Um, and in terms of the HR network as well, funnily enough, I was asked to look for one in Wales recently, and and there's not many, but it bringing people like that's something that you think there'll be a lot of people.

FflurJones:

When we started, we were kind of the first, um, and that's why we called it the Wales HR Network, and we have huge ambitions to make sure that that is also pan Wales. Um, there is another network that's been established since, but I think there's probably room for both. Um, obviously you've got CIPD as well, who's instrumental, but again, you know, we've been working with them and uh sort of reciprocating by having people speak in different conferences on either side, if you like, so there's no competition there. But yeah, it's done really to try and recognise. Well, it came about because uh solicitors can you know get nicely recognised in the legal 500 and chambers of partners. But we've got two HR consultants here, and I just felt sorry for them one day when I realised there was nowhere for them to go to have any recognition, and it's a thankless task what they have to do. So that idea then spawned the Wales HR network, obviously, doing that with Akon uh by Synergy. Um, and yes, it's it's had a few stop starts, hasn't it? It's fair to say, mainly because of the pandemic, as much more than anything. Um, but we're firmly back on track now and um got some exciting plans for the next sort of 18 months.

EmmaWaddingham:

Oh, fantastic. We're looking forward to sharing those as well. Thank you. Um, so a bit about more about leadership and culture, um, because things don't happen without strong leaders. Um, and Flair, your leadership has been described as instrumental uh to the growth of the firm. How do you feel you've managed to maintain a strong firm culture while scaling so rapidly? Um, or certainly go from going, as you say, that kind of middle 30-ish to to the growth that you've seen now?

FflurJones:

It's quite hard to know how to answer that, in the sense that um I mean lots of the uh longer-serving partners here have been in other law firms and have not particularly enjoyed the experience potentially. So when this law firm was set up, it was very much done with um an aim of keeping, you know, a very warm, supportive culture um whilst working hard, but also making sure we all had fun. I'm sure every law firm would say that they've got the same culture, but I do believe we actually have it here. Um so for me, it was incredibly important not to upset that particular Apple cart whilst achieving efficiencies and whilst achieving almost a sort of spurt of confidence to us all that we can achieve bigger and greater things and grow and you know be ambitious and compete with uh some of the other firms in a better way. So um I think it's been mainly about staff engagement. Um we've got you know some really well good teams across the uh across the firm um with some strong leadership in each one. Um so the messages have been trickling down, but also making sure that you know from the bottom up that people feel included. Um so you know, making sure we've got lots of socials, making sure we've got um a strong CSR uh committee and uh who they organise loads of stuff. So keeping that going and also not going from sort of you know 40 miles an hour to 100 overnight because you just can't do that. You've killed people. Um, and it was more about recognising, okay, well, we're you know, that amount of efficient at the moment, but we need to get to there and just changing it so that people felt that the change was possible and achievable for them without making them feel totally stressed and uh upset and wanting to leave.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, absolutely, and also getting that work, as you say, that's of of higher quality, even higher quality um and different clients and more exciting work to kind of take hold of and creating a bit of a buzz, you know, that people feel the firm is going places, and obviously that's why it's great to win this kind of award for people to think, oh yeah, we are doing something right, you know.

FflurJones:

So it's it's it there is no one thing, I don't think, but it's just trying to keep all those plates spinning, I think, is the answer.

EmmaWaddingham:

A thankless task sometimes, I'm sure. Well, yes, yeah, sometimes it's anyone listening. It seems to be okay. I mean, it seems to work, absolutely, yeah. And Erin, would you want to reflect on that a little bit as well?

OwenJohn:

Yeah, so I've I've been at this firm for um 17 years now. Um, so I've I've seen it change a huge amount. And I think, you know, the the difficulty is with growth, um, and I didn't know this until we grew, but the the the challenge with growth is is keeping that sort of warmth in that yeah, when you're a smaller group of people, um, you know, 17 years ago when I joined, um, we were in a much smaller office, and um it felt almost uh like a family. And I'm not sure a business should ever really feel like a family, uh, but it did almost feel like they renew each other's business and with all its dysfunction, yeah. And it was quite you know, it was quite warm and fuzzy and that type of thing. And I guess the challenge is going from there to you know, well, we're almost 55 people now. We've got uh people, as we are speaking, beavering away at their desks four and a half hours to the north of here right now. Um, the challenge of keeping that warmth is a is a real challenge because you've got people on on the edges, people who are perhaps new new to the firm who um have only known it to be like this. So it's it's really the biggest challenge, I think, is keeping that fundamental warmth, if you like, whilst also growing. And it is all about communication and engagement.

FflurJones:

Um, I don't think there's one magic world that you can wavery yet in. But we do have you know, we've introduced like away days or away afternoons and socials afterwards, and we've also um gone for um sort of a new internet to try and sort of have a central place where lots of information will be shared because you know, as you grow, you have to evolve, you you can't stand still as you know. So it's yeah, we're just trying to keep up, I suppose, is the biggest challenge as well.

EmmaWaddingham:

And it's funny, isn't it? It all comes back to those core human kind of feelings and cultures, isn't it? And our psyche of wanting to be around each other. We don't particularly like things out of our control or change, so that communication is really important. Um, and even seeing things through the pandemic, you know, how we're dealing with remote working or hybrid working, it it is you it things like the away days and the afternoons make such a difference to bringing everyone on board, don't they? They do, they seem really obvious, but but they can be transformational in in pulling people together.

FflurJones:

But also sometimes you can be feeling very clear in your own head that you've communicated a message you want to uh disseminate because you've spoken to a handful of people, but then you realise it's got completely lost in translation. Yeah, so yeah, it I I quite like all of that. I think it's important. And I'm obviously there's we've got a great bunch of partners who are all dedicated to that too. So that makes everything much easier.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. Um obviously, you know, this award that we're talking about, that you uh the business growth award, it I don't want it to be is uh who has who's the biggest in Wales. That's not what this award is is about. Um, but that growth and meeting that growth, meeting your plans or strategies, the the impact that that has on the wider firm, that's very much about, you know, that's why the criteria is quite complex but quite detailed. Because I really wanted to see the firms that are able to, what you've just said, you know, not once, which I've really enjoyed actually is that you've not sat here and said we want to be 150 people strong in seven years' time, you know, is about okay, what do we want from this firm? What do we as partners and and as people uh, you know, why do we set this up in the first place as well?

FflurJones:

I think that's really important to keep uh in mind. You know, growth for growth's sake is not of any interest, really. Um I I think we are united, aren't we, Owen, in wanting to um create you know, a really strong brand. Um keep up the great quality of work, make sure you know the instructions that come through the door are good quality ones, make sure that you know the brightest and best that we have here are stimulated and excited to come to work every day. And you know, growth then is the secondary consideration, really. We don't need to be 700 people, we can be quite happily being 70 as long as we're doing all of those things, and quite frankly, that we're still also enjoying it and having fun because you spend an awful lot of time in work, and it's really important that you in a supportive, equitable environment where everyone feels supported and happy, yeah, very important.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely, Flair. Thank you. Um, so I'm gonna come now just in terms of what the award meant for your team. So I heard from from yourself, how did the team respond um to the win in terms of the recognition um of this kind of growth and what the team has done over the over the past few years?

OwenJohn:

Yeah, I think it was huge excitement. I I mean, I think um a sense of pride really is is how most people felt about it. And it as Fears alluded to, it kind of fits into the wider piece of engagement and getting people to be bought in and getting people to feel proud and excited about work. I mean, also I think it's th things like this award form part of a picture that attracts future talent. And I think that's it it's gonna play a really good part in in attracting further talent. So I think there's an inward-looking piece with everybody being very proud and excited about it, but also we can project this to the outside world, whether that's clients who feel that they're doing fantastically well or um future recruits. So if from our perspective, it's it's a it's a win-win-win all round.

EmmaWaddingham:

Oh, that's exactly what I reckon. The whole point of them was exactly that. And and and when we go to London next year, we've we've got the event in Wales with London to showcase the finest and but obviously particularly the winners, uh, and to show the diaspora, you know, what it is that we can deliver in Wales if they were looking to return or perhaps, you know, um looking to change jobs, change your lifestyles, because there is a fantastic opportunity here, and you know, we we can't just cycle through the talent that we have in Wales, we know we need to look further afield as well, um, and making sure that people realise what's on offer. Um, so fantastic. Um, and what message would you give to other firms in Wales about their growth, ambition, and raising the profile of the Welsh legal sector nationally um here in Wales and beyond?

FflurJones:

Um, well, go for it. If you know, if you if you feel that you've got a story to tell and that you've been going places, I think it, as you say, it doesn't matter about being the biggest and the loudest or the like the most biggest turnover or whatever. It's more about what's your individual journey been and what have you got to say that means that you stand out in some way. Um, I think it's really important that the legal market struggle landscape in Wales is recognised and um celebrated because you know there's a huge amount of amazing people working in the sector um whose brains are bigger than mine and who you know deserve recognition. And also Wales traditionally has been known for its great uh lawyers, um, and I think that's something we should be keeping up and you know, building this sector in Wales and recognising the power of it, you know, for job growth, job creation, and also um to keep the brightest and best here in Wales.

EmmaWaddingham:

100%. Thank you. Um, so where can listeners find out a little bit more about Darwin Grey? Oh, hang on, no, that was not what I was gonna say out loud. I do apologize, I'll stop there. Um I'll put that in at the end. Okay, right. So I've got I'm gonna talk a little bit about the future, if that's okay. So we've talked um about not perhaps wanting uh to scale up to 200, uh 200 people overnight. Uh, that's not what that's that growth is about for you for you all at Darling Grey. What excites you most about the future of your legal practice in Wales and beyond? Um, and what are some of those plans if you're able to share some of that with us today?

OwenJohn:

Yeah, I mean, one thing that I would say excites and terrifies in almost equal measure is AI on the horizon. There's no doubt about that. I mean, there are more some more immediate uh issues, such as the SQE, which uh uh is is is uh is a bit of a headache for lots of firms to grapple with. But in terms of the evolution of the provision of legal services, I think AI has got huge percent potential to make uh a big difference to the way we deliver services. Um I've mentioned earlier that we're always going to exist, there's always gonna be a need for somebody to provide a personal and professional service. Um, but I think that's a challenge that the sector has to meet in the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years is how how where do we fit into the AI landscape? And there are um you know big law firms across the world who are grappling with this issue, so it's not unique to people like us to be worrying about this, but it's it's something that we really need to need to think about going forward.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. Well, even the founders of OpenAI uh are still grappling with this pace of change, and when they're using it themselves, are blown away by by how quickly AI is changing on a even on a chat GBT level. Um, but yeah, there's certainly things that can that can be done kind of even within the firm rather than necessarily client-facing. Um, and in terms of your projections for the year ahead, what are you most excited about, Flair?

FflurJones:

Well, we've had uh quite a lot of recent tender wins, significant ones, including in the housing association sector and also getting ourselves on the Welsh Government's uh commercial delivery framework across all of the lots that we tendered for. So that was great. So there's lots of opportunities to um sort of go in there and meet the prospective clients that use that framework, uh, recognise what kind of training uh events and other networking events that they might wish to um find us at and and hear from us. So there's lots of work to be done on that to um build on the potential of being on some of these um frameworks because getting on them is only the first. Yeah, it really is, is having time too. So it's it's exciting, and we've got a great uh series of training events coming up from September onwards that are geared on on employment law in particular, geared for for the sort of public sector to to hopefully attract them to hear what we have to say. So all of that's really exciting. I think what's happening with the Cenev growing and uh some of the new legislation coming through from the Cenev, uh, I think in the next term will also be very interesting because it does actually now properly create a body of Welsh law that again, a law firm like ours is completely primed to be all over it. You know, the my colleagues in the property department are already dealing with quite a lot um of developments in that uh regard. So there's loads going on basically. Um, we need to uh control uh this AI business um so that we can get on top of that. But um, yeah, there's there's just opportunities galore, and you know, we've touched already on the bilingualism, but that's gonna be continuing to be a strength, I think. Good.

EmmaWaddingham:

Fantastic. Well, it sounds like you've got lots to be getting on with over the next 12 months. Um, very much looking forward to seeing how much uh growth uh uh and development in other areas and hope that we welcome you back again next year at the awards, but I know um we'll be doing lots of events as well throughout the year. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you and for opening up um a little bit more about why um how Dolphin Grey has grown and some of the exciting plans ahead. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience podcast brought to you by Legal News Wales. If you found this conversation useful, please subscribe and share it with your colleagues. There's lots of episodes to follow and go back into. And you can also join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com for more resources to help you build a resilient future focused legal practice.

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