Legal Sector Resilience

Making law commercial: a new era for legal costs

• Legal News Wales • Season 2 • Episode 2

Share episode

A merger driven by values, not vanity. We sit down with David Hughes, Martin Walsh, and Kathryn Huxter to reveal how KE Costs and Paramount Legal Costs became Peak Costs—and why a people-first, “professional but never corporate” approach can raise standards across legal costs work in Wales and beyond. From authentic culture to practical service design, this conversation explores how specialist support strengthens access to justice and helps firms stay resilient under pressure.

We unpack the real reasons behind the merger—shared values, complementary niche strengths, and a belief that relationships beat transactions. The team lifts the lid on building a remote-first organisation with local presence, showing how flexibility lets them recruit the best people, stay close to clients across Wales, and deliver faster, sharper advice on everything from costs budgeting to recoveries and negotiations. We also dive into training and progression: in-person learning days, expert mentoring, and a forthcoming costs apprenticeship scheme designed to open the profession to people who choose it by design, not by accident.

Expect candid reflections on risk, integration, and independence. The Peak Costs team explains how they kept quality front and centre, why they’re fiercely independent, and how collaboration across the costs community can push the field forward without diluting standards. 

For Welsh law firms navigating fixed recoverable costs, tight margins, and client care demands, this is a blueprint for using specialist costs expertise as strategic infrastructure—not an afterthought. 

Discover what Peak Costs means for your legal team. Visit peakcosts.com

Enjoyed this conversation? Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. 

For more information and signposting, visit the insights section on legalnewswales.com and use the 'Legal Sector Resilience Podcast' filter.

EmmaWaddingham:

Welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast, conversations with the people driving stronger, smarter, and more sustainable legal practices. I am Emma Waddingham, editor of Legal News Wales, and in each episode I speak with trusted voices to inspire the legal sector, sharing advice and lived experiences across leadership, growth, technology, finance compliance, culture, diversity, client care, and more. Together we'll explore what it really takes to build resilient law firms that make a difference, not just for clients, but across communities in Wales. Thank you for tuning in. Before we begin, don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com. So I'd like to welcome my guests today. We have three very special guests, normally one, so I'm delighted to have a team of people here to speak to. I'd like to welcome David Hughes, cost lawyer, and a member of the senior management team at KE COS. I've got Martin Walsh, who's the managing director of Paramount Legal Costs, and Catherine Huxter, who's a good friend of mine, I've known for a long time, as team leader and cost lawyer. And all those job titles and definitions are about to change as we get into the podcast, and we'll talk a little bit more as to why. Because it's a very exciting time for you all, isn't it? Welcome today. Thank you for joining me as well. Thank you. Oh, thank you. So I'd like to talk to you about Peak Costs. We've been working, Legal News Wales has been working with KE Costs for a number of months as a partner. We're really grateful for that. We've given lots of insight um into cost management for our for law firms across Wales. Um but there is some very exciting announcements. Uh, we've sneaked a little few of those in onto onto the platform. And of course, Catherine and lots of other members of the team are based in Wales. You're coming to a big conference with us um in October. So people are going to be seeing a lot more of you. Tell, I'd like to talk a little bit more about the launch of Peak Costs. Um and that's two firms, two cost firms coming together, uh, as they KE costs and also Paramount Legal Costs. Um, and there's two reasons I'd like to talk about that. Firstly, because as a legal sector resilience podcast, we talk a lot about uh changes to the business of law, management, culture, people, acquisitions. Um, and that really probably is effectively the same across lots of different businesses and cost law very, very similar. Um, and also to talk about the type of the growth of the firm that you're looking for in Wales and the support that you can offer firms and and just really share with everybody the the capacity um of the expertise that you have. So um tell us about the the merger. Why now? What's what why bring the two firms together? And is this something that's been um in the planning for a long time? Have you been working together for quite a while?

MartinWalsh:

Yes, I guess yeah. The short answer is um yes, the planning has been going on for a while. Um obviously, uh Paramount and KE have um worked in the the legal custom industry for a number of years, and we quite often found ourselves at very similar events, conferences, having chats. And I think of the certainly probably the real chat started around about two years ago, where we realized we were fairly well aligned with the type of work that we did with the clients we had. But I think more most importantly, the values that we both had as companies were very much what people come first, and how people actually actually then um build bonds with clients, and it's a very sort of personal approach to how we do things. So probably not really a transactional approach with our clients, obviously. Then um discussions have gone much further to the point of we were collaborating on a few sort of matters that maybe paramount with experts and K were and vice versa, which has then led us to ultimately going I think we could be stronger together, we could be better together in the perfect opportunity to see where it where it went, which has obviously led us to this point and was being able to merge as one to form Peak Costs from the first of October, which is massively exciting. A lot of work's gone in behind the scenes, but we're very excited. Yeah.

EmmaWaddingham:

And and this you know, the the the legal sector itself is is obviously very small across England and then also in Wales. Um the legal cost uh industry is even smaller, and so of course you'll be seeing each other a lot. Um but because of that, probably quite competitive as well. Um, and it's not a situation where two small firms are coming, you know, both already considerable summers in terms of the area of the industry that you're in, both are weighty firms to come together. Um, and that that kind of more full service offering. Um, you know, there's lots of law firms that have in-house cost teams. What is the landscape? What's the market like at the moment for um that provision of cost expertise to firms? What's the what's the most cutting need?

MartinWalsh:

I think it's um I guess you're right. We probably as an industry, um, a lot of people have brought it in-house. We still think we offer something as an alternative to an in-house. And yeah, I I think pulling together two already expert teams just makes us stronger. And we are we're now gonna be better set up to extend the offering to many more clients. But actually, I think what's really important to us is we can offer more services to current current clients because yeah, ultimately we're gonna be stronger together. A lot more expertise in a lot more areas of cost. Cost is very niche. Um, we've we've got a lot of cost experts who are experts in niche areas of law and and cost.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah, which is often not something that you can generally do, perhaps in-house, because you're covering quite a lot of bases as well. And David, from the perspective of building something, it's a very beautiful. I've seen the brand, um, I've had a sneak peek of the website that's to come. Um, it's incredibly beautiful looking and it's corporate, and there's a there's obviously a clear message in terms of what you're going to deliver for clients. What was key in your mind when creating peak costs to do something as an opportunity to do something slightly different together and or and or drive efficiencies? What what was kind of key to you when coming together?

DavidHughes:

I think the the key message that came across was authenticity. I think um when we, as I said, as you've covered, we were two well-established, highly regarded, highly respected firms. So that kind of relationship kind of grew into a marriage. And we decided that we we decided that um the values we were going to we were going to lift the values. So we we had a lot of discussions in the background about what those values were, um how gay saw things, how paramount saw things, how peak would see things going forward. And so one of the one of the one of the messages um we were trying to get across, and we hope we will get across, is um professional but never corporate. So I've I've I've went in the big lower environments where the where the values have been shiny and slick, but it's it's important to us that if we're saying people will have a good work like balance, that will be role model that work like balance, that we make sure people do get good work, that they enjoy, that we will have happy people working for us who will produce brilliant work. And I think I think what we were saying before about um the clients, the clients are more demanded now in terms of they they they expect the relationship we set high standards and the clients expect to um be involved because it's not an afterthought anymore, it's it's integral. Um if if if the solicitor doesn't look at the cost, they can't carry on um access to justice. So I think our our culture is embedded in that. It's like we see we see the people, not the cases. We it's it's all about being authentic and human, not about the numbers. Hopefully, if we do a good job, that follows. But yeah, it's about getting getting the right things right, I think is the message that was trying to get across.

EmmaWaddingham:

And that lived experience is very much experienced by Catherine, who um we met when you were working in Cardiff. Um, tell us a little bit more about how say how you work remotely um into the firm. And then I'm assuming there's lots of other people who live uh in various different locations and that working with Peak Costs. Catherine, tell us a little bit about your background and and and the work that you're doing and where you're based.

KathrynHuxter:

Yeah, so I'm um proper South Wales, proper valley girl, obviously. Yeah, I mean, uh I started out working about 15 years ago down in down in Cardiff, and um I worked for uh a nice external company, and and then you know I went to an internal role. But the pivotal point for me was that lockdown then happened, so obviously everybody had to work from home. Um, but because that was so successful, and you know, you had Teams and Zoom and all of these nice functions coming together, it gave me the opportunity then to start working further afield, which is how I ended up with Kay. So Kay are based in Liverpool, and then you've got Paramount who are Carlisle, and then there's me then down in Wales, and then we've got a couple of other people dotted about, and it just works. It's it's just work because we have Teams meetings and we have chats on the phone, and it's exactly the same with our clients, you know. We because because the same thing happened with them with lockdown, they understand, oh well, actually, let's just have a quick Teams call. And and it just works really, really nicely. It's um it's been very collaborative, so yeah.

EmmaWaddingham:

It's fantastic, and and actually when we first spoke through K E after a while um of not having caught up, um, you know, realizing that you're now working for a for a large national firm um with the ability to work from home is fantastic, and hopefully it will encourage you know encourage a a lot more um to do the same because it's quite an in it's quite a tough industry to to recruit in as well and to build people up. So um the more people that know the flexibility, um, the better. And obviously for those clients that you have got and will have more of in Wales, it's helpful to know that there is somebody local as well, um, particularly when there's a market, yeah.

MartinWalsh:

Yeah, and I think that merger does help form new sort of potential for smaller collaborations around the country. And you you may not know this, uh Emma, but um David's currently based in Portugal, so that flexibility of the hybrid remote is it's more about this is more about people than you have to be in an office. It's about getting the best people that we can to do the job, and we want to be as employers, we want to be as flexible as possible with them because we know that we can work from anywhere, it was proved during COVID, you don't have to be sat in an office five days a week. But I think equally we're finding that now with our main Carlisle base and Liverpool base, but we've also got sort of flexible um opportunities around the rest of the country. Um certainly in in Wales, there's um CAF who's from KE, and we've got members of Paramount who are based in Wales as well. So just bringing them together opens up the opportunity for growth in not not just in England but in Wales as well. So it's it's a really exciting time for us.

EmmaWaddingham:

Absolutely. And then how in terms of so we talk a little bit more about your people and and obviously um spoken about how they how they can work with you. What about training aspects as well? So I'm sure coming together, there's lots of different ways that you might train and and and develop your staff, and particularly if they're working remotely, um, is there a particular structure that you have or you're investigating as you expand the business as well, particularly for those who might be interested in coming into the industry themselves?

DavidHughes:

I don't know if it helps, but I used to run a training academy um at one point. So we I think that the model I'm working behind the scenes on the cost apprenticeship scheme as well. Um we're involved, we're one of the 12 places. Hopefully, the cost apprenticeship scheme is going out is going to start towards from September 2026. We've already committed to um having at least two uh two people who gone up on that apprenticeship journey with us. Um so we're at the heart of trying to um open up the kind of cross industry and and make it a proper um avenue, like something we all probably fell into costs, but it'd be nice to have someone who wants to born a cost lawyer by choice um and work their way through it. I think being remote has opened up opportunities where once upon a time people would have had to have gone to one of the more bigger cities to try and make it money. And I think what what we found with people that grow our own is that there is the potential to work remotely um or sort of like a hybrid system where um we've we've kind of realized that people do need support, and sometimes the kind of there is at the outset, at least the learning on the job elements kind of it's it's kind of important for people to to work together to collaborate. So we do have we do have days where everyone's kind of together and learning, but then remotely, um it could be Catherine Pickett, or Catherine does a lot of training, and we've got Adam and Chris within the business, and then the credit to the trainer as well. And we all kind of we all offer different bits, technical skills, um traffic skills training. So I think there's concerns the craftings could be very early on to get people in the office to kind of help and support them in the person as it kind of progresses the end of a device where you can just you can get on the phone to anyone, and a lot of the systems will be on platforms that can be accessed to anyone. So we think it actually opens it up and makes it more democratic, meritocratic kind of interface, and there's more accessibility and flexibility. So if someone's good enough to work in class and has has the commitment and the right attitudes, then hopefully because we're only gonna help them be what they want to become and be the best raising with themselves. So I think yeah, I think it's I think the remote opportunities have opened it up massively. Um but obviously we also want to make sure there's that in-person kind of element as well, um, as one needed with flexible.

EmmaWaddingham:

It's the eternal juggle, isn't it? That there are so many benefits to both, but giving both of those opportunities, and it really feels like um, and as I say, this is not very helpful on a podcast because you can't see all the branding, but we will be signposting you to everything, um, all the shiny things and all the information after at the end of the podcast. But um, it really feels like a sea change in the way that the cost law is going to be delivered, the opportunities you just mentioned the cost law apprenticeships, uh, which is fantastic. And this is obviously taking off across uh law firms and chambers as well, um, is a fantastic route to entry. Um, and does it feel like I mean you were recently at kind of some of the industry events as well. What's the feedback been from clients and from solicitors at those events about what you're trying to do, what you're what you're launching and what what you're trying to achieve with Peak?

MartinWalsh:

I think it's it's it's actually blown us away. Um not just the feedback from clients and colleagues, because we had an all-together day towards the end of June where we revealed the brand to to everybody. So that was that was really exciting. So for our people, I I think yes, there's always that um there's that level of oh nervousness of what the future holds. But I think it's um we've held lots of chats with our our guys internally because it's really important, but it I think the feel is very much it's excitement, it's this is new, this is shiny, we're gonna be setting the standard, hopefully. But I think the biggest thing that's blown us away has been the reaction from potentially our competitors, other people in the cost industry to go, well, you're doing it a little bit different. This is exciting. I'd like to know a little bit more about that, and I think that will open us up to have some really exciting collaborative conversations because I think there are some firms out there who are who will want to collaborate with us, and it improves, like David was saying before, access to justice, knowledge, sharing information. It can only mean a good thing for clients in the long run as well. So it's really exciting, and yeah, some of the emails and text messages that not just me but everyone who will be the new peak have had have kind of been really encouraging. And wow. Um yeah, and I think we we I think we've been using the word we're fiercely independent in that that's what we want to be. We want to be just a great cost firm um and do costs really well.

EmmaWaddingham:

So yeah, absolutely, and having that that flexibility to be nimble, to do things in an independent manner, um, rather than perhaps to the bidding of uh of massive investors or or uh law firm owners or otherwise, you know, it's a is a is a great opportunity, and it's and it's a huge risk as well. And it must have been quite um nerve-wracking, as friendly as you are, and knowing each other to actually open up each other's businesses, warts and all, and and pick out the good, the bad, the ugly, um, and go through them. But how how was that? Because that you know, that's that's tough.

MartinWalsh:

It yeah, I I'll not deny it's not it's probably been a longer road than we thought it would be, but I think that's because we've done it really well together. And yeah, we have we have opened up to each other. Um, there's been lots of discussions about well, how how do Paramount do this, how do K do this, and essentially we are, I would say, really well aligned. We do a lot of things the same way because we think that's the best way to do it. So, yes, there's going to be tweaks um from the first of October onwards, but in essence, the service to the client should be exactly the same, if not better, than what it was before. Um, and yeah, I I think it just there's still that element of nerves, and obviously, I've been owner and MD of Paramount for 18 years, so it's gonna be a whole change for me, but I'm really excited about it because the guys at KE are great, and um I think the guys at KU think the guys at Paramount are great as well. So it's I think we're we're just ready, we're ready to go now, to be honest.

EmmaWaddingham:

In terms of the market that you have in Wales and the work that you do and the firms that you work with, um it'd be great if you could maybe tell us a little bit more about that, just so maybe some of the firms can familiarise themselves. So um there are particular sectors or areas or sizes of firms that you're already very well acquainted with in Wales?

DavidHughes:

From from my point of view, I already have um some clients who are well established in the Liverpool, North Wales, Chester kind of area. Yeah, all different um quite big firms that do um a lot of retail type work, and then there's um huge commercial firms, and then um there's the cleaning personal entry firms, so real mix, uh and that's just that's just covering kind of the northwest area. I think Catherine's um Catherine's got the South Wales area kind of to her team and those people in that area, but um but personally as well, my my mum's Welsh . So um for me for me it's kind of home. That's it. Well I'm gonna go and see family while I'm there, be told off if I didn't. So um I'm gonna go and have a panel with um with some family and and see them before I go to it. Um so yeah, for me, what we'll try again, we were talking about authentic, and um we were talking about all our experiences of um working in different cost firms, different firms to date. Um, and it was about the people coming into the firm how how we can provide the most pleasant experience. Obviously, it's a pressure job, it's um it's stressful, but as as supportive as they can be, and this kind of feels like everything's aligned, and the one of the values is people like us do things like this, um, and and that's being supportive and collaborative and helping each other out. Um, and I think um there's already that kind of that kind of work and culture in in the Welsh community anyway. So it seems a natural fit that we why why wouldn't we be working with people like us who want the same thing and they want successful outcomes, but we'll we'll challenge and help each other to get the right results.

EmmaWaddingham:

And that's it, it you know, it's being part of you're an extended part of legal teams and the work that they do um and the outcome for clients. And I think you know, to be able to tap into those existing networks is really helpful. Um, and obviously we're we're delighted that you can come and join us and learn a little bit more. Um, but yeah, I think I what I'd love to know as well, a bit of a takeaway, is is I think one of the biggest lessons that you've learned through merging the businesses and creating everything that you've had to put together. Um, Martin David, what would you say the biggest kind of either challenge or benefit or positive story that that you've you've got to share with our audience?

MartinWalsh:

I think uh the biggest benefit is um the people. So I I've known for a good many years how good the people at Paramount are over the last sort of 12, 18 months. I've got to know the KE guys much better. Our values align massively. The um sort of the importance of the work that we do, everyone is aware of that. Everyone buys into we we want to do the best job that we can possibly do. So for me, it's 100%. I I've got a team that's gonna double on the first of October. That's so exciting, so many opportunities internally, sort of um, so many opportunities externally as well, in terms of bringing in new clients, uh, making new relationships, but the guys like I I trust implicitly. The biggest challenge has been how much work that we've had to put in it. But I always go down the the thought process of it's it's a short-term pain for a massive long-term game.

EmmaWaddingham:

Yeah.

MartinWalsh:

And I do really think that like us doing this uh this merger is gonna be a game changer for the cost industry and and also for the clients that um use us and and we can support going forward. So it's yeah, massively exciting.

EmmaWaddingham:

Tell us when when we can look at the new website and meet the team and find out a little bit more.

MartinWalsh:

Yes, so the the website is almost ready to be launched. Um, it will definitely be launched before the first of October. Um, so it will be www.peakcosts.com. Um, it's really exciting, it's really fresh looking, it it's different. Um, but I think it represents who we are and what we are, and I think um anyone who checks it out will think, yeah, um, we know what we're gonna get from these guys.

EmmaWaddingham:

David, Martin, and Catherine, it's been such a pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing lifting the lid on on what's been happening, um, and for us to be able to share a lot a little bit of the peak costs journey as well. Um, and thank you for sharing a little bit more about the uh realities of a merger and what lies ahead. So thank you., Thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience podcast brought to you by Legal News Wales. If you found this conversation useful, please subscribe and share it with your colleagues. There's lots of episodes to follow and go back into. And you can also join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com for more resources to help you build a resilient, future focused legal practice.

People on this episode

Head Shot

EMMA WADDINGHAM

Host
Head Shot

Martin Walsh, Peak Costs

Guest