Legal Sector Resilience

Lessons from law firm leaders: mindset, people, & practical change

• Legal News Wales • Season 2 • Episode 1

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What if resilience in legal practices had less to do with software features and more to do with people, purpose, and small wins that stick? Our host, Emma Waddingham, sat down with Amy Bruce- host of the Empowering Law Firm Leaders podcast and Head of Marketing at Osprey Approach —to unpack what SME firms actually do to grow stronger and smarter without burning out their teams or budgets.

Amy draws on insights from the many podcast conversations she's had with operational leaders, consultants, and managing partners. We explore value-based pricing as a repeatable playbook for any change project, the quiet power of curiosity in legal sales, and why pioneer groups beat top‑down mandates when you need adoption. 

We talk culture that supports failing fast, not failing big—plus the practicalities of building momentum when time and resource feel tight. From thanking referrers to tracking introductions, from aligning partners around purpose and cashflow to making usability and training non‑negotiable, the through-line is clear: resilience comes from human systems that make smart use of technology.

We also look ahead. Fractional expertise is rising as firms bring in seasoned project managers and compliance leads for critical moments. Osprey’s renewed focus on intuitive UX and unlimited training shows why usability outruns novelty. And yes, AI is on the table—but with a grounded approach: clean your data, define narrow use cases, set boundaries, and pilot where quality can be measured. Expect actionable takeaways, candid stories, and a simple challenge: pick one pain point, one pioneer group, and one outcome to prove progress this month.

If this conversation helps you think differently about growth and change, follow the show, share it with a colleague, and leave a quick review. It helps more legal leaders find practical strategies to build resilient, future‑focused firms. 

To hear more from Amy and the Empowering Law Firm Leaders podcast, visit https://ospreyapproach.com/empowering-law-firm-leaders/

For more from Legal News Wales, visit legalnewswales.com

For more information and signposting, visit the insights section on legalnewswales.com and use the 'Legal Sector Resilience Podcast' filter.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast. Conversations with the people driving stronger, smarter, and more sustainable legal practices. I am Emma Waddingham, editor of Legal News Wales, and in each episode, I speak with trusted voices to inspire the legal sector, sharing advice and lived experiences across leadership, growth, technology, finance compliance, culture, diversity, client care, and more. Together we'll explore what it really takes to build resilient law firms that make a difference, not just for clients, but across communities in Wales. Thank you for tuning in. Before we begin, don't forget to subscribe and share this podcast with colleagues and join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com. Hello and welcome to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast, hosted by me, Emma Waddingham, editor at Legal News Wales, where we aim to help law firms looking to strengthen their resilience and thrive in the business of law. In today's episode, I'm joined by Amy Bruce, Head of Marketing at Osprey Approach, Legal Software, and host of its Empowering Law Firm Leaders podcast, which is why I've invited Amy here today. Hi, Amy. Hi, Emma. Thanks for having me. Oh, thank you for coming. So we're going to speak to Amy today about the consultants, the experts and law firm leaders that she's spoken to, about what resilience really means in practice for SME firms. And I really wanted to hear what conversations have stood out for her. There have been quite a lot of podcasts which we'll signpost at the end of this episode. I absolutely encourage you to listen to them all. And also we're going to be learning about the lessons that she's heard, the common challenges facing firms now, why resilience is so much more than just technology. And this is what fascinated me the most when we spoke previously, Amy. It would have been so easy for you to just pick up and run a legal tech podcast, right?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, nobody wants to hear about legal tech from a tech supplier. That's just not what they want to hear. So, and to be honest, we know from our experience that people sit at the heart of tech. If you've not got them using it, there's no point having the best systems. So I really just wanted to deep dive into what it meant to run a law firm and the challenges that they face to help us selfishly become a better tech company as well. Absolutely.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Um, and there is obviously there's lots of podcasts out there. I know we're one of very, very many. Um, so making sure that it's a good listen and it's it's hitting the nail on the head. You know, lots of people can't get out of the office to go to networking events. But they're really useful ways of maybe even just aligning your own challenges and saying, okay, that's me. I I recognize myself in that. So um, but Amy, before we dive in, I wondered if you could just introduce us to Osprey. Tell us a little about a bit about your role and the podcast um itself, like when it started, um, how long it's been going on for, and how many series as well you've got so far.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. So Osprey is an all-in-one legal practice, case and accounts management software. So we provide SMEs across the UK with technology that helps them run their business. So that's all the way from compliance, client onboarding, matter management, right the way through to accounts, office accounts, reporting, and all of that stuff that it takes to run a business. So we initially launched a uh webinar series called Build Better Habits. Now, through that series, we spoke to experts in a sort of panel round round table style to understand what it takes to run a successful modern law firm. And basically those episodes could have run for hours.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah, I love you get so much out of them, don't you? But it's like focusing on one particular expert at a time, I suppose, in the podcast, isn't it?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. So we thought, let's let's give the experts their their real space and time to share their knowledge. So that's where the podcast was born, essentially. Probably almost 18 months ago now. We're in the sort of 20s with episodes. We don't have series, maybe we should. Um so I think we're we've just launched our 22nd episode. And essentially it's there to talk um to experts across the legal sector to understand the habits, the skills, the mindsets that are needed to build a resilient modern law firm.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Fantastic. Thank you. Um, so why did you so you've decided to focus on business resilience as a theme? We've we spoke about that over technology, and I suppose it comes back to that point of before you can even start, and we speak a lot about this on the podcast, before you can even start to look at the tech that you need, it usually comes back to that mindset, doesn't it? That, you know, what is it we're trying to achieve? Where is the business going before you start plugging in the solutions? Is that quite a common discussion that you end up having? Yeah, absolutely.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

And to be honest, it's the only discussion we end up having. The the preparation, the research, the clarity on purpose, the mission, the team, the resource, all of that needs to come into place and is the only way you can run a successful project before you even begin to look at what tech you might need or what tech you're gonna choose or what partner you're gonna have. Um, I don't think there's any expert that I've spoken to or law firm leader that has said the opposite, really.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and and you know, with the with the role and the scope that you have as a business looking on the law firm, that kind of all in one solution basically means you get involved in everything, don't you? So there's so much to talk about. Um so it's gonna be exciting to see what you've learned. And um, and so so who joins you on the podcast, Amy? What kind of contributors have you brought together and and how do you choose that mix? How do you bring them on board?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, so we we basically try and have a mix of people that we feel is going to provide the most value to law firm leaders. So that the podcast is aimed at current and aspiring law firm leaders, so maybe those that are moving their way up the firm or fancy themselves as an operational leader or managing partner in the future. So we try and bring a mix of experts in the sector. So that could be a tech expert, it could be a change expert, it might be a business development or sales expert. And I also love to talk to law firm leaders themselves. So we've had CEOs, managing partners, practice managers, all on the podcast again to share their perspective. What does it mean on the ground? It's all good and well sharing what we believe is best practice, but is that feasible? Is that accurate to what's happening in the law firms day to day? So it's a mix of people from experts across the sector as well as law firm leaders.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Absolutely. You get a variety of different perspectives. So, so right, so tell me then, what what are the standout conversations been, the moments that have really stuck with you? Um, and and well, maybe we'll kind of talk about any surprises along the way as well. So, 22 uh episodes of the podcast. What have been the standout ones?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'll start with a few lessons learned. So I think that the main lesson I've learned is that everyone struggles with the same challenges. You're literally never alone. It doesn't matter what sector you're in, what role you're in, everyone's facing the same people challenges, the same um operational challenges. Yeah, you're literally never alone. Um, I think the other lesson I've learned is that don't, as a leader, you don't need all the answers. So don't restrict yourself by not allowing others to contribute and share ideas. It really is strength in numbers. I mean, that's a classic phrase, isn't it? But yeah, you don't need to go it alone. And whether that's external help or just help from your team internally, um, yeah, that's definitely a standout conversation. And then the third, and we can touch on where these have sort of come from and the specific people, but the third is vulnerability always pays off. So swallowing your ego is the best thing you can do for collaboration and the benefit of the business and the team. Um, there's never a scenario where you can't sit back and say, this is where I'm at, this is how I feel, this is how I've come to this challenge or answer. Um, and to be honest, it's the best thing for your own well-being. Trying to struggle with that and do it all on your own, not be vulnerable, actually leads to burnout. I've spoken to plenty of people who have been in that position. And yeah, that the takeaway really is that to be vulnerable and to be honest is the best way a leader can help lead their team and get the best from people. Yeah.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

And it's funny, isn't it? Because I think as as leaders, you often hear, you know, if you don't know something, put your hand up, come forward, we can talk it through, don't struggle on your own. You know, we hear a lot and we see a lot of the results of that with with um, you know, the listings on the law gazette with the SRA. Um, but then as leaders, perhaps don't take our own advice. And so, you know, thinking, is that a sign of weakness if we show that we don't have all the answers? You know, that's quite a big step for some people to take. Um and so, and also the time it takes to kind of take that, you know, to step back and reflect as well. You know, it's a constant challenge that I hear from consultants and experts we bring on that, you know, it is tough to try and get that change in place to get those decisions made, because often they take that time, that money, that resource. Um, and often time more than money, I think, is is quite a big blocker. I don't know if that's something that you've heard um from your own conversations.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

A hundred percent. I think, and unfortunately, because there's no easy answer to this, but time and resource is the biggest blocker to any change, any innovation project, any tech project that law firms want to implement. It really is about not having the right people in the right places, the right time, the right priorities on this project. It's never going to get off the ground. So unfortunately, because there's no easy answer to that, time is definitely the biggest blocker.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah, absolutely. So talk to us a little bit about the the people that have come on uh with with you and had those conversations about their backgrounds, what the things that you've spoken about, Amy.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I sort of racked my brains to pick a few of the standout conversations for you!

Emma Waddingham, Host:

I mean, notwhat to say that everyone else is like, you know, second rate. These are not, yeah, absolutely. These are things that are coming to the top of your mind, I suppose, isn't it?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. Because they all have have had an impact on me, mainly because they all say very similar things. So it's just a compounding evidence that you know that that advice is true. But I do have a few. I I've picked a few out of the out of the bunch. So the first, I've got to pick Sean Jardine. So I mean, I'm sure so many people know him and have seen him, but for me, he's such an inspiration in the way he's written his book. So he wrote a book about implementing value-based pricing. Now I could talk all day about value-based pricing, why that's important, why it's important now more than ever. But I think the thing that stood out from Sean was how much of a practical guide it was. He really takes you through step by step of how to implement value-based pricing. But actually, his book is just a guide for implementing change. Like all of the steps and stages that he runs through are actually just really good signposts for how to implement any sort of change in your business. And one of the key things out of the money that he wrote about that I really enjoyed was having a pioneer group. And I've heard that from quite a lot of law firm leaders as well that having your pioneer group, having your change champion group, whatever you want to call that, that's actually so crucial to getting anything off the ground. Um I spoke to uh another podcast that will be coming soon, David Langdon, and he spoke about that let's take a tech project, for example, um, your IT manager isn't going to influence all of the lawyers on the ground, but their peers might. So actually having a pioneer group that includes loads of people across the business is going to be your absolute driver for change management.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Absolutely. And it alleviates that stress of it having to be the leadership, making those decisions and assuming that they have all the answers as well. It's a broad spectrum, isn't it, and taking that all on board. Um, and I remember we I spoke to to Sean probably one of the first couple of podcasts that we did. And it was actually before, I think before he wrote the book. Um, and I think there's so much to take out of it. And even if you don't go the whole hog of value-based pricing, even just understanding the worth of the work and making those, being able to make those decisions around the clients that you take and the decisions that you're making, um, and equating that to value is so important. It's so worth a listen. You know, you don't have I've I've spoken to some people, go, oh no, it's not for us. Well, but just listen. And as you say, I think that taking you through that that process, that change, that's really interesting. And I absolutely encourage anyone to pick up the book for, you know, even on that basis alone. Um, and he writes really well, he speaks really well too, doesn't he? Yeah, absolutely.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

And he's been there and done that, he's seen it all, he's been in the trenches, he's so knowledgeable. So, yeah, I always end up referencing Sean. I think he's great. Um, another podcast, and we um shared the Legal Tech Roadshow with Peter Ambrose a couple of months ago. Um, this one stood out to me because I just find him super inspiring on what he's built, essentially. Um, but also his mindset of failing fast. So he is really keen for embracing failure and doing it quickly, testing something out, experimenting with something. If it doesn't work, let's move on, let's try something else. And what I find fascinating about Peter is although he's built a law firm and he's the CEO of the partnership, he started in tech. So actually, his background is software, software sales, um, which is obviously where his mindset has come from of failing fast because that's inbuilt in him. But I don't know what possessed him to start a law firm after being in software. So I find that really fascinating.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

That's a podcast one of us needs to have with him, right? Yeah, definitely. And it's very much around conversing a property. And he then created Legalito, uh, which is the the the communication uh between uh law firm partners around property. Um, and and it's and it's fascinating and it's really escalated, I think, recently. But he's in a position where he says, you know, you don't have to use it. If you want to use it, you can. There's not been a charge for a lot of people. He wants to see how it's working, that feedback. Um, and it's a really refreshing approach to some of the technology that's out there, solution-based technology, that it's built by a law firm. He hasn't, even though he's got that sales experience, he hasn't really been pushing it in that sense. It's very much a collaborative piece. And he's determined to see change in the sector to make things better. And I think that passion has really driven it, hasn't it?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, 100%. I think the things that he's I think as an outsider, and um one of the key things for the podcast is actually talking to operational leaders that aren't lawyers. Because I think sometimes as an outsider to a sector, you have such a different view of how things happen. And I think that's what's made him really successful is he just thinks about things differently because he's had a different experience and a different background. So yeah, his his conversation, his journey is super inspiring and helpful for anybody who wants to build a sort of tech-first law firm and wants to have tech really at the heart of that. Um, another podcast guest that um I love, and if I'm being brutally honest, I've fangled over a little bit. Um, Matt Dixon, he is a global sales leader and he's written several books about um how to sell effectively and marketing and all of that good stuff. However, he had this experience, and I won't talk too much um about his background, but he had this experience where he was in a conference with loads of law firm leaders and he was sharing his experience on sales, and the the people in the audience basically stood up and said, This isn't relevant to us, you're not talking our language. And he was really humbled because he was like, Okay, I clearly don't understand what you guys go through. So that basically led into a two-year experiment. He spoke to loads of professional services leaders, a lot of those were law firm leaders, to basically understand the unique challenges that they face. Because let's be honest, selling in a law firm is very different to selling any other product.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Um, and he he did a load of research and he created this book that is based on that research. And it was just really fascinating because it's so contextual and so relevant. Like you pick it up and you just see your for me, our clients, but you can see yourself in that book. And not only is it backed by evidence, which you know makes it slightly more relevant, but there's some just really great takeaways in there. The one that stood out to me that I'll share today, and I love this word, so I'm word of the year, word of the decade, is curiosity is key to effective sales. And he talks a lot about how um they're called activators, that the rainmakers within a law firm, those that sell the most, that have the best relationships, are called activators. And there's loads of key um mindsets, behaviors, habits that these activators possess. Um, but one of them is curiosity in that they ask the right questions and they're just curious of the people that they connect with. They're curious of people in their network. And the one thing that I really love and I try to take away from the conversation is that they're not scared to say, I don't have the answer. So if someone asks them a question and they go, I don't actually know the answer to that, it's not my expertise, but I'm gonna go away and find the answer for you and I'm gonna connect you with X, Y, and Z. I'm gonna do a bit of research myself. And what activators do is they're curious and generous with their time to actually make the right connections for their um prospects or or or their network. And I just thought that was so fascinating because I think a lot of the time when you're in sales, you feel like you're not succeeding if you don't have all the answers. But actually, his advice was totally the opposite.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Do you know, Amy? I feel like you're describing me. And I'm sorry to make it all about me for a minute, but when so I um, those that don't know, I used to be a director in embarrassers chambers in in that kind of role of ambassador in sales and et cetera. And you know, I'm a journalist historically, and that storytelling that worked quite well, but that curiosity, and I always used to put it down to being nosy, but I suppose it's a much more professional way of phrasing it, isn't it? And I think you naturally, I one, you know, people kind of questioned the move. And actually for me, it felt quite natural because all I was doing was asking questions, listening, understanding, reporting back, absolutely being able to say, look, I'm a jack of all trades, I understand this, but I'm gonna have to get some more specific advice here. Um, you know, whether that's fees from clerks or information from barristers about, you know, members of the team. And I I it it just felt quite normal to me. But at the time, I then started to panic. It is, am I doing the right? Am I in the right role? Is am I doing the right thing? You know, the sales and in chambers, if we're gonna put it down to that, would have suggested yes, it's working really well. Um, but you know, that I think that I'm quite a curious person. I think if you're a real Pete, it comes back to being a people person as well. Um, and it's those values that often don't get the kind of the love that they deserve, you know. And I think that there's a lot of business development roles in in law firms where, you know, you're because you're not technical, you're not maybe seen as important and you're seen as having all these conversations. What are you getting back from it? And it does take time to build those relationships and build that trust for them to be really honest with you. And from there, you get to the nugget of, well, why is that relationship not going anywhere? Why are we not getting this type of work from you? Why are you not buying that product from us? And it does take those conversations and that genuine kind of curiosity, I think. Yeah.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, we've all been in a room with somebody, or we've all spoken to somebody, and we've gone away feeling like, gosh, they were just, they were really cool, they were really engaged, they made me feel warm. I want to meet them again. And you sort of think, like, why is that? What why did they have that impact on me? And actually, most of the time, it's because they're just genuinely curious. They've asked you good questions, they've listened really well, they've provided insight, they've not made it about them, they've, you know, they've they've taken that time with you. And yeah, he he positions that in a great way to make that effective in sales and make that effective in building your client base and building your relationship. So just yeah, I thought it was super.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, that's maybe a fascinating. I've not heard that one myself, so I'm gonna have to go back and listen because that I'm really intrigued. And it'd be interesting to see if he thinks you can learn that or if that's part of a personality that's just who you are, and so therefore, we need to find those people within the organization. So yeah.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Oh, fantastic, great. Yeah, that's a great shout. And he he does absolutely touch on that, so yeah, that's worth listening to. And just the final thing, because this is really I I only spoke to Robert Flint recently, but it's really stuck in my brain. It's super simple piece of advice. So, Robert Flynn, um, he is the CEO of Advisorly, a law firm, but he's also written a book about how law firms can uh win new business via referrals and how to do that effectively. And the one piece of advice that really stuck with me, and I went, oh my gosh, I need to go away and do this. You've you've you've made me realize this is isn't something I do. But say thank you to your referrals. If somebody's referred business to you, whether that's through an introduction or through an actual sale and conversion, make sure you say thank you. Treat those people, take them out. If they're doing a good job for you, that will pay dividends down the end. So yeah, don't forget to say thanks to your referrals.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Definitely. Yeah. And it's hard sometimes to know who they are, but they come out in the washed, usually, and you realize who's who's passed you on. Um that's such a lovely point. Um, so we've heard about the types of people, some of the standout conversations. Um, I want to, I wonder if we were able to take a deep dive, but have a look at some of the conversations that I've um had a look at that I know that the people that you've spoken to, people that I'd like to speak to, so I'm quite interested in these. So the first one's Kate Burt from Hive Risk. Um, and Kate is a busy lady, uh, she has a lot of collaboration, she's very busy, but I haven't actually been to hear her in person, um, mainly because of the events haven't been this side of the bridge for me. Uh but she talks a lot about the link between tech risk and growth uh naturally. And I wondered um, what do you take from her perspective on how law firms can be resilient uh in this space in particular?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I love the fact that you started that off with she's a busy lady, because I think that really sums her up. And actually, I really struggled to compile a list of questions for her because she covers so many areas. Kate Burta's just got her fingers in all of the pies. And to be honest, that's was my real takeaway from her. It was her approach to building a business, it was her approach to life that I thought was really inspiring. So hive risk focus on compliance, their sort of fractional compliance help. Um, they help with your tech, your strategy, your policies, that sort of thing. Which I guess you could potentially mistake Kate as the founder as maybe risk-averse because she's in that compliance world, but she's the total opposite. She takes every opportunity with two hands. She really goes with her gut. If she's got a good feeling on something, she'll absolutely run with it and experiment with it. And I just found that almost contradictory because you'd think someone in compliance wouldn't have that approach. But that's what's got her to where she is today. She's not scared to take opportunity, she's not scared to take risk when it's calculated. And I think one of the things that has made her successful and able to do that, as well as obviously her years of experience, which has meant her gut is probably always right. Um, but it she's really built and she focused on having the foundations of her business. So that absolutely includes tech. She's got the right tech in place, she's got the right budgets and priorities around tech, but she's also got the right people in place. One of the things that was interesting is she said she hired, I think it was her technical director, her finance director, and some someone else I can't remember, way before she could afford them, essentially. And she did them on a fractional basis because she said, I need the best in class to help me to get my business to where I need it to go, but I can't afford you full-time. So I'm gonna take what I can get, essentially. So she's got a great team around her that has provided her with the best advice, the best sounding board that has meant she can grab these opportunities and grow from, you know, a few people firm to where she is today, where she's constantly growing and opening new offices. So I really thought it was her approach, her mix of taking opportunities when they come, but having a foundation that's helping her mitigate that risk was yeah, I mean, a responsibility.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

It's a beautiful blend, absolutely, of entrepreneurship and even almost like mentoring herself, you know, with an executive board. I absolutely love that. She's she's a smart lady, and that'll be a fantastic listen. Um, another one is is Lindsay Kidd, who who talks about the employee perspective on resilience and culture. And is am I right in thinking Lindsay's uh actually within a law firm herself? So she provides us. So let's talk about her.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, Lindsay's the managing partner at HM3 Legal, and I met her at an event she was doing a talk on. It was titled Managing Partner Secrets. So she was on the panel of other managing partners sharing, you know, what they get up to in the day and what and what's made them successful. And yeah, her focus is is all about people, and I find her super inspiring, not only because she's a female leader, I love to um interview female leaders, but I kind of liked how unaware of how great she was. I was sort of saying these things and saying, like, it's not typical for law firms to have this sort of policy or this focus on um employee engagement. And she sort of was just like, is it? Yeah, because it was so natural to her. It was just, it was just her day-to-day. She would never imagine doing anything any different. So yeah, she she really didn't sort of appreciate how different her approach was. And you can just go on their website and realize that they're not your typical law firm. And I just think the way that she's focused on her people and collaboration and well-being has really paid off. I think sometimes when people talk about well-being and employee initiatives, they can feel a bit wishy-washy, it can feel, well, yeah, that's that's a nice to have, but we've really just got to get stuff done. We don't have time for that. And she's just a shining example of that it pays off. It's worth dedicating that time. She talks a lot about vulnerability, she talks a lot about failing fast as well. Like she's not all fluffy people. She's very much, let's get stuff done, let's move on, let's innovate. Um, I spoke to her also about innovation. So when we spoke, she just hired her head of innovation. Now they're not a huge firm. So to have a head of innovation, again, is is pretty unusual. But she, yeah, she basically had an entire ethos about um trialing things, experimenting things. She actually had a quote, she said, if you're not failing, you're not trying hard enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I just thought that summed her up and summed up why she's she's been successful.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah. And having someone else to get their head around the changes that, you know, we're starting to see the fruition of things like, oh no, I'm going to bring up conveyancing again, things like digital property transactions now coming in this autumn uh in the UK, sorry, England and Wales. And and then you've got other there's just constant change there that's almost being forced upon the sector. So not having people in place to look at these things. And so often you'll have, maybe you'll see this, Amy, committees of change makers who ponder over a particular solution. And by the time that they've made the decision to go ahead, they find that solution's probably a bit out of date. Or the approach that they're taking isn't going to match where the market is now forced to change. So I think it's that having a constant, whether it's innovation, transformation, whatever it is, point of difference, looking out there and bringing that information to the firm. You know, as you say, a small firm, but but it affects the firms of all sizes. Um, and things are changing at the rate of knots, uh, whether it's political change, economic, tech, whatever it is, it's happening, isn't it? So that's fantastic to hear. And another great listen to see how Lindsay would have put that into action.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. You you've got you've got to be constantly moving, haven't you? I think that's the crux of resilience, is that you can't stand still. You've you've got to always be looking ahead and being agile.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah, and having partners you trust. And I think that's why this podcast series in particular is so interesting to me, because you've pulled together, I mean you you've talked about kind of common threads, but it's because you've pulled together the right people. There are people in my little circle, there are lots of other people's circles where we all trust them, they say good things. Even if it's a couple of things that you can take away, um, you're really investing the time to come and have a listen to these. Um, I'll keep saying it because it's important. And another one on my list, because I've got his book, I love it, is Simon McCrum. Um, and if you haven't listened or read any of his work around cash flow, profitability, um, and his people, purpose, profit uh kind of mantras, um, then you're missing out. And what's really nice is you can have a great introduction to Simon through your podcast. So tell everybody a little bit more about um the chat you've had with Simon.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. My gosh, I love Simon. And um, Sneak Peek, we're having him back on. So he's written his final book in his trilogy, The Perfect Partner. Um, so I'll be interviewing him very soon. So he'll be popping up back on the podcast. But yeah, what what I love about Simon, and I reference him all the time. I'm basically taking my entire knowledge from Simon. I've just His ideas. But the thing I particularly love about Simon, he's very straight talking, he's very no-nonsense, and he's very focused on cash and cash flow. However, he is also really focused on having a purpose, having a mission, having a collective goal and aim. He talks a lot about getting everybody in the rowing boat, rowing in the same direction, being on the same page. And I actually think people would find that surprising from him. If you know him and you know his approach, you wouldn't expect that to be a priority from him. But he's realized from his own experience, growing his own law firm, and then talking to hundreds of others, is that that's key. If everybody's doing their own thing, if everyone's working in silos, if not everybody's in the rowing boat going in the right direction, you're never going to achieve what you want to achieve. In his latest book, he talks about that he's seen partners, he uses it again, the boat analogy. He's seen partners drill holes in the boat. And because and they're almost sabotaging one another because they're operating on their own, but it's all for one business and one firm. So that's that's never going to have, you know, the effect that you need. So yeah, I think his experience and his knowledge, again, he's been in the trenches, he's been there, done that. I think that shock and combination between you have to have the mission, the purpose, what some people may think is the fluffy stuff, in order to achieve the serious revenue, cash flow, profit growth that you really want to achieve.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Yeah, because no one's going to get behind you otherwise. You know, and I I, you know, I speak to a few um kind of startup or scale-up firms where maybe there's one or two partners in there. We might have started off with one, and trying to get everybody else, you know, the frustrations of growth is well, why are they not investing as much time in this business as I am? You know, I'm really frustrated they won't do this, they won't do that in terms of maybe sales and BD. Well, no, because you have to bring them on board. They have to be with you on this ride. No one's going to work as hard as the owners, perhaps, in terms of trying to deliver that. Um, but you know, and it was kind of a bit of a lesson for some of them to learn to, well, well, they're employees. So how do you build that? Um, it also helps with us with marketing, doesn't it? Where you've got to go out and explain that point of difference and why this firm over others, um, because it isn't a cost-based type of uh sector, you know, even if if some clients do come down to costs, it's it's often not that choice. And so we can't have those messages about communicating about the firm without that kind of that mission and that purpose to be able to take that and storytell. So it is so important. It's lovely to hear him talk about that as well, because you know, the numbers side, it's very difficult, isn't it? We know working with finance and where's the where's the delivery, where's the ROI, but you also need that soft side to kind of balance it out. And I think these are all things that law firms constantly struggle with. And perhaps when they've nailed it, they're having to evolve again, particularly as they're growing, um, which I'm sure you've heard.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I think he's the perfect example of why taking time to do all those things matters. You can't just focus on the one thing, it really is a combination of a lot that will get you to where where you need to go. Oh, thank you.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Um, so just before a look at uh a little bit about what's to come and and and your role uh with this at Osprey. Um how in terms of the, and this isn't a question you know that I'm gonna ask, sorry, Amy. Have we got a lot of concerns, got a lot of fractional support here? Uh, lots of people that worked in firms as well, which is quite helpful in a way, although it's nice to get perspectives from other industries because you know the law firm can't kind of regurgitate what we're doing in the legal sector, but equally it's so nuanced compared to most private businesses. Is the role of is the kind of the fractional support, the outsource support? Do you see that increasing at the moment? Do you hear that from the people that you've spoken to? You know, are there more consultants being used because of that helicopter view that they've got?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think for those SMEs, which is which is our focus at Osprey, I think that's the it's going back to the Kate Burt mindset. That's the best way to get the expertise. If you can pick somebody's brain who has been there, done that for four hours a week, that's better than having nobody for zero hours a week. So they can't afford to hire a full innovation team. It's just not possible. So bringing them in when you're making those big decisions, when you're having those big change projects. I mean, uh, to be honest, a lot of the success we see at Osprey when implementing um the software, if they have a project manager, an external consultant on board, it typically goes far smoother because they know the challenges, they know the risks to avoid. Again, they've been there, done that. So yeah, we are, and I think it's a great way to leverage all of that experience and knowledge.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, fantastic. Thank you. And so from a practical perspective, we touched on, you know, obviously that with Osprey, you'll you'll be seeing lots of people as a as a interim. And it's really helpful in uh communication as well, because you might have somebody that's fantastic in the tech world. So speaking to your project managers, they can have those really smooth conversations and then articulate that back and try and engage and bring on board the firm. But what do these conversations bring to you at Osprey in terms of helping deliver the solutions that you provide? How has this podcast helped you?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's helped us cement some of the ideas that we already know. Again, we've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of implementing tech. We've heard stories from people that have been scarred from previous systems. We've had people who are super tech savvy, innovative, um, but have not thought about the people side of things. We've had the opposite where maybe they've not got the tech skills in place. So having these conversations has helped us cement some of the ideas that we already know, but it's also helped us gain that real on-the-ground knowledge. And again, the strength in numbers, the more we speak to people that have spoken to people, the better the connection's gonna be. Um, I recently had a conversation with um two, actually with two tech consultants, and they've seen things that we'll never have seen, and vice versa. So selfishly, actually, the podcast helps me really pick their brains and then helps to translate into the product, create the product that law firms need, create the services that law firms need. So yeah, I get a bit of uh selfish help from it too.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, quite no. Well, that's it. And and and also because you're genuinely fascinated, which is why they're such lovely conversations to listen to. Um, so what's coming up, uh, Osprey, before we come on to the podcast, is there anything uh Osprey that we should be looking out for over the next few months, or certainly been in more recent months that that law firms might be interested to know about?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, for us, we can't stand still. We've got to constantly be changing and innovating. And Osprey has gone through recently a really exciting transformation project on our UXUI. So, one of the things that we've heard about several times is it really isn't about the shiny new features. If it's not easy to use, if it's not easy to pick up and it's not easy to learn, people aren't going to use them. So we've really focused on making sure that the system is super intuitive, super easy to use. That's the sort of investment that we've made recently that is ready to be used, and we'll continue to do that. Um, but similarly in our services, so what if if you don't mind a quick plug, what really sets us apart is um the services that we offer. We've spoken a lot about people, you can't just implement tech without without the people backing. And we offer unlimited training and support to really provide that confidence. We want our users to absolutely take advantage of Osprey, to do the best work they can do. So we've really focused on making sure that those services that we offer in-house are really there to support all of the different roles, not just fearners, of course, they're the biggest user of our platform, but all the other operational leaders, the compliance officers, the practice managers, the cults, the coffers, all of those to really just do the best work that they can.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Absolutely. It does, it is such a shame, isn't it, where you have a piece of tech and it it kind of gets failed. And then there's that apathy because actually what's happening is people aren't using it. Um, and it is tough that getting over the first hurdle of getting everything on board, onboarding it all, uh, and using it and learning the lessons of what you know, what you can do with it. I think it is tough. It doesn't matter what business you're in. That is a tough process. But the training, you know, for me, whether it's a website or a case management system, it you have to keep going back to that training. Um, and there are always lots of new features to use. So, you know, to me, I want to hear firms in the next kind of 12 months when we have our legal tech roadshows, is come back and say, well, we're right, we're using the tech as well as we can. We know we feel really confident with that, we feel we need something else. We're kind of maybe aware of now where of it it can go in, and we've actually got the data to make that worthwhile. I think that's maybe a challenge for firms now to go back and use that tech that they've got really, really well before getting the apathy of any new investment. And it is a tough, you know, economically, financially for firms, it is tough to find that money, to find that budget. And so they do need to be making the most of the solutions that they've got.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, for SMEs particularly, they can't afford to make a new tech investment and for it to go wrong. They just, there's no option for that. They need to make it work. But I think my biggest bit of advice from a tech perspective is start small, really try not to revolutionize your entire firm, change everything within the system. I know it doesn't feel like you're going to have the big bang and the big wow and the big ROI initially, but it just very rarely works, especially if you've not got that resource and priorities in-house. So start small, start with your biggest pain points, talk to people, talk to the people on the ground. What frustrates them every day? What do they dread doing? Every time they log into whatever they're using, what do they dread using? Fix those things first, and then you can look to do the big strategic changes. But yeah, that's that's the success we've seen across firms who are looking to invest or just utilize what they've got. You're right. A lot of people only use a slither of the things that they've already invested in. Um, yeah, start small and you'll you'll see the impact. You've just gotta be patient. Absolutely.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, thank you, Amy. And so finally, what can we hear from uh the next few? We talked, we touched a little bit on some um podcasts coming up. Any teasers at all?

Amy Bruce, Guest:

I'm super excited for I think it's later this month. So depending on when this one's released, uh Dan might already be there. But Dan Warburton has written a book about delegation. My gosh, is he knowledgeable? And delegation is something that just isn't spoken about. How to delegate effectively, how to get buy-in, how to deal with when promises aren't committed to and aren't made. That is a great episode, very excited for that. Um, also spoken to Eloise Butterworth, who has just recently joined Hive Risk, which is very exciting. She is their head of compliance, I think. She's got a wealth of knowledge of what it takes to be an effective compliance officer, day-to-day, on-the-ground experience of what it takes to be successful. And of course, we can't ignore AI. I recently spoken to the guys from Simplexico. He is the founder of Simplexico. They create bespoke um training and education courses, but also products and services for firms around AI. Um, I really wanted that conversation to be different. I didn't want to scare anybody. I didn't want to talk about the security problems. I didn't want to talk about all of that. I wanted practical advice on how to prep for AI, how to know you're ready, how to implement it when you are. Um, yeah, that was super interesting. And then I've got loads of also tech conversations because, like you said, we've tried to avoid it. Nobody wants to hear about tech from a tech supplier. But actually, it's important that people know if they're going to make this investment and how to do it effectively.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, fantastic. That's that's brilliant. And that will tie really nicely with our next Legal Tech Road Show, which is coming up um in November in Cardiff. Um, and we'll welcome you back to that, Amy, to come and say hello to people in person. And that's particularly around AI. So it'd be great to kind of bring that to the conversation as well. Um, it's I think there's so much exciting stuff to talk about. Lots of firms are using it. Um, I think we have to maybe dump all the fears in the basket because we could just talk about them all day. So, what is it that that that's positive? What can we, what should we be looking for as well when we are picking up certain tools? So I think practical support in that space is really, really helpful. Um, but Amy, thank you so much for sharing um your insights and joining me today. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited to go back and listen to some of the ones that I've missed on the Empowering Law Fem Leaders podcast. Um, I really appreciate your um just sharing some of those the secrets um that you've picked out as well and some of the reflections.

Amy Bruce, Guest:

Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Emma. It's been really strange to be on the other side of the microphone. So thank you for having me and looking forward to the Tech Road show in in November.

Emma Waddingham, Host:

Oh, an absolute pleasure. Thank you. So if you'd like to learn more about Osprey Approach or catch up on episodes of their podcast, you'll find all the links in today's show notes. And thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast hosted by Legal News Wales. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share it with colleagues, those who want to build stronger, more resilient law firms. And until next time, take care. Thank you for listening to the Legal Sector Resilience Podcast brought to you by Legal News Wales. If you found this conversation useful, please subscribe and share it with your colleagues. There's lots of episodes to follow and go back into. And you can also join our insights and events community at legalnewswales.com for more resources to help you build a resilient, future focused legal practice.

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EMMA WADDINGHAM

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Amy Bruce, Osprey Approach

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