Legal Sector Resilience: Recruiting Beyond the Pay Grade - with TSR Legal

Are lawyers looking for more than money when it comes to their legal career? Yes, but there's always another reason people move. Law firms in Wales are adding a variety of benefit packages into the mix to attract and retain the best talent. Emma Waddingham, Editor of Legal News Wales and host, sat down with Ryan Price and Rachel Phillips from TSR Legal to hear more and see if there's more to legal recruitment than the pay grade. 

We promise this episode will offer valuable insights, from competitive benefits like enhanced maternity/paternity leave and career progression opportunities to the growing importance of personal well-being initiatives. Ryan and Rachel share their expert perspectives on why financial compensation, while critical, is no longer the sole factor driving career decisions in the legal industry in Wales.

Listen as we explore the fierce competition in Wales, where local law firms are upping their game to match the attractive packages offered by international counterparts. We discuss the innovative strategies these firms employ, such as promoting work-life balance, mental health support, and equitable benefits for all staff levels. This episode reveals the reality smaller firms face in competing with these high standards and how they can still stand out amidst the shifting expectations of legal professionals.

Our conversation takes a deep dive into the evolving recruitment dynamics, highlighting the importance of mutual evaluation during the hiring process. Discover how the shift towards conversational interviews and transparency in salary discussions is reshaping the landscape. We'll also touch on the implications of AI on junior roles and the cultural adjustments firms must make post-COVID-19. Whether you're a law firm looking to attract top talent or a legal professional navigating your career, this episode is packed with practical advice and real-world examples. Don't miss it! 

For more information and signposting, visit the insights section on legalnewswales.com and use the 'Legal Sector Resilience Podcast' filter.

Chapters

• 0:00 Legal Recruitment - Is Money Everything?
• 11:42 Benefit Packages in Law Firms in Wales
• 19:28 Evolving Trends in Legal Recruitment in Wales
• 26:09 A Different World - Tempting the Next Generation into Law
• 35:01 Why People Move on & The Importance of Talking About Career Options

Transcript

Emma Waddingham: 0:00

So I'd like to introduce my guests for today; I have Ryan and Rachel from TSR Legal.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 0:04

Hi, I'm Ryan Price, director at TSR Legal.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 0:09

Hi, I'm Rachel Phillips. I'm Associate Director at TSR. I head up the Professional Support Services and Conveyancing Division.

Emma Waddingham: 0:17

Thank you both for joining me today. We have regular check-ins with TSR Legal, our preferred recruitment partner, and when we last spoke to see what's going on in the job market, we were talking about, beyond the pay grade, this idea that money is still the be-all and end-all, but actually that law firms are having to compete more than just money. We don't have endless buckets of cash, so I thought it would be really interesting to see, just before we go into the autumn, what employers are offering, what candidates are asking for and what a little bit more than just the kind of, maybe the marketing push on a recruitment side of things, what's genuinely being offered, what is working when it comes to those recruitment packages, and I also want to touch upon the impact of that for existing employees. With things gathering such a pace of change, what does that then mean for those already in a law firm? Because the last thing you want to do, obviously, is alienate your current employees. So, guys, does money? Still do all the talking.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 1:19

Interestingly enough, across my division so I deal with mainly non-qualified across the UK and more so for non-qualified, I'd say, finances does play more of a factor than I think. Maybe for fee earners potentially. Obviously it's their first sort of legal role and you know there's loads of different options coming out of university in terms of title, you know. So they sometimes they do go where the money is but then usually to find that that might not be the right role for them or might not be the right sort of match. But on the sort of conveyancing side and the fee earning side of my division, the more senior I think it does play a bit of a factor in just because they have to factor in sort of child care costs.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 2:04

Now most firms are starting to get people back into the working environment, into the office. So, depending on how flexible the employer is, less flexibility usually means requirement of more money and remuneration to counterbalance travel and those child care costs, as mentioned, and I don't think it does all the talking. It's not the main factor when people look for jobs. It's a big part of it, but it's I wouldn't say was as important as it used to be.

Emma Waddingham: 2:32

I would say oh, Ryan, what's your experience?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 2:34

I think from the feeling side, I think it's split between level of PQE, so I think from the kind of zero to four PQE. I think money is a massive motivator for quite a lot of people, maybe early on in their career. I think the Cardiff market during COVID and post-COVID saw a lot of lawyers moving from Cardiff firms to Bristol firms because there's a potential of £20,000, £30,000 more for a newly qualified salary. So I think that is quite a big determinant factor in that newly qualified to four market in Cardiff. But more kind of that senior associate, legal director, partner level, I think it's often, yes, it is a determined factor but it's more about the benefits. So maternity, paternity leave, things like that is really really important. Quality of work, progression to partnership, whether there is the option for equity or not. So I think it all depends on the level of PQE for a firm of your industry.

Emma Waddingham: 3:29

Okay, and so we're talking about kind of personal and professional development journeys as well, and that's increasingly, I've noticed it's sneaking in on a lot of the recruitment posts that we're putting up alongside TSR, particularly maybe at the lower levels, their different solicitor, apprenticeship roles and routes to qualification, but then equally, when it comes to supporting people into partner roles, and is that something that is an attraction, or is it almost seen as an expectation that firms should be offering this, and are enough firms offering it?

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 4:04

that firms should be offering this, and are enough firms offering it? Again, from the paralegal side, there is a higher expectation on what the employer can do from the non-qualified market. I would say I think when you look at where you want your career to go, I mean in my 13 years when I first started, everyone wanted the big title, the big salaries, um, you know, to climb that ladder. But I think now that the the communication as well, across the market there's so many more networking events now people talk a lot more and the expectations from maybe somebody sat in cardiff, or two people sat in cardiff, one person working for a bristol firm and then the other one working for a cardiff firm, so, and then their salaries might be four to five k different.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 4:47

But it depends on what that person's looking for. You know, are they looking for that career development and growth? So it would be short-term loss, long-term gains going at a lower salary. And if you're going in at the higher salary, um, then the expectations on that person is a lot higher as well. So it depends on how much pressure you really want to put on yourself, um, but yeah, ultimately I think that apprenticeships, um, they are being offered a lot more in wales now and and bristol is quite healthy on them as well. Um, but I think when candidates are applying for them this s the sqe side of things. I think has sort of um really changed candidates expectations of of where they can go with that qualification on on the side of their name, sort of thing.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 5:29

So it's, yes, a bit of a bit of an interesting market out there when it comes to apprenticeships.

Emma Waddingham: 5:35

Okay, thank you so when we're talking about benefits, that can range wildly and it obviously depends on the individual as to what they want and depending on where they are in their life. You picked up on paternity and maternity leave. I read something today about Sweden actually offers grandparent leave as well, which is amazing. I don't know whether we'll ever get to that stage. Are men taking paternity leave? Is that something that you're seeing on the? Particular senior end.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 6:02

Interesting one. I think I've seen a lot more females coming to me now from the relationships I have, saying all right, the reason I'm leaving is because I can't afford to have children while I'm working at this firm because the maternity leave is statutory. So I think a lot of firms are realising if they want these senior lawyers, females, into these top roles, big roles in law firms, then they have to be, they have to be offering good paternity, maternity, otherwise it's not possible um for lawyers to take off a certain amount of time.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 6:35

So I've noticed it more of the last I don't know where there's a relationship that I have with these individuals, but they've come into me and saying this is why I'm leaving, where before I'd never, I'd never even hear that question, where they would say well, what's the, what's the opportunity for such and such? And, when we've done our research, actually surprising how many firms it's statutory it's really hard because you know when you're um.

Emma Waddingham: 6:57

Maybe generalizing the term, my own experience, you know, when I was younger I didn't really have an idea that I have children. So it was never something. I glossed over that part because I didn't think it was for me.

Emma Waddingham: 7:07

So if you stay in a firm and you're not planning children within the next 12 months, you might not, or you're not in a relationship, you might not think about it and it kind of sneaks up on you, and so at that point, yes, somebody's if you're in the position where you can plan might be wanting to kind of look around before before they get pregnant, but it's it's such a personal kind of life choice, isn't it that you yeah, it's not. It just doesn't kind of marry up that you'd be looking at that five to six years before you join an organization. You think it'd be beyond yeah, I think it's.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 7:37

I think it's really really key in the market that we're in now, because the market is good, because I think firms realize now that candidates have so much choice. But it's very, very difficult for a firm to say, right, we've got 200 staff, we're going to change it from statutory to a really really good enhancement. It's impossible for a company to to do that.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 7:55

Um, so it's because these firms are very, very set in their ways, because they've had a culture or they've had this in place for such so many years. It's very, very different for them, difficult for them to change. Because it's the internet, it's a cost to the, it's a massive cost to the business. But I think we're definitely seeing even sort of partner roles are taken now but they're saying we'll take someone on a on a part-time basis, full-time unheard of probably previous now. So they're actually a lot more flexible. When you speak to what's the split to the people in the team, well, actually four out of five of them work part-time or reduced hours, which is kind of unheard of. So firms are having to be more flexible. Now they're saying oh well, I need to drop the kids off before work. Well, there's a lot of firms where that is. You can't. You can't do that. If you're not your desk by half eight or nine o'clock in the morning, why is he working, walking into the office so late? So I think that's.

Emma Waddingham: 8:46

I think firms have had to be a lot more flexible around that to either retain staff or attract staff as well and it'd be interesting to hear from law firms who, who do have that flexibility in place to say you know, does it impact productivity, does it impact the firm? And being in touch with clients in that client care side of things, I'm pretty sure it probably doesn't um, so it's almost, you know, inspiring others to make that step change.

Emma Waddingham: 9:10

Let's go to the happier workforce, if you haven't got the stress of worrying you, but I know what I got two young kids children.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 9:17

So I know if I'm not able to do that well, I'm gonna have to put that stress on someone else, or I'm gonna be worried about that, thinking oh, oh, my god, are they going to pick my kids up on time? Things like that. So surely that makes it a more happier workforce, because you're attaining the talent then, aren't you? Because, you're not having to go elsewhere. It's really quite sad if someone had to leave a job because of that. Yeah, not because they didn't, they disliked the employer. It's because they need that flexibility.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 9:42

It's such a small thing in a way isn't it and I think on the conveyancing side there's so many different ways that law firms and CLCs are operating now going back to that flexibility side, and there are some firms that will allow you to have fully remote.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 9:58

I mean, I work with somebody who doesn't matter where they're based, they've got conveyances out of the country because their systems are so good, um, so I think you're right. Why, in regards to the modernity and the forward thought of these practices now it's about, am I able to, you know, offer people to be able to sit at home? You know, do we have the software in place, do we have the infrastructure? Because the next generation of these lawyers now are going to be expecting that and they're going to be looking at firms that have that mindset of. Or, you know, it doesn't matter if I, if I come in half hour late, my, I'm trusted to pick it, pick it up, um, when I do get to my desk or when I'm at the office, and there's so many options for remote conveyances now.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 10:39

So the to the welsh and the southwest market is unfortunately becoming a lot smaller because candidates are now going to firms in Milton Keynes, in Birmingham, who do have these remote operating models and yeah, there's so massive disparity between one firm and another firm and nothing seems to be the right way.

Emma Waddingham: 11:00

I mean in Wales, you'd like to think that because it's a smaller market and we will talk a bit more, that perhaps that kind of influence rubs off on others Do you think? Is it like a majority of forward thinking firms in Wales, or what's the split?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 11:17

I think, because the market in Cardiff is so varied, I think it's very, very different to say, for instance, the Bristol market. There's a lot more corporates in Bristol whereby in Cardiff you have got the high streets, you have got the boutique, you've got the medium size, the large corporate, you've also got the international firms. So I think that's why we see it from a kind of a wide angle lens that there's such variety. There are high streets that are very, very set in their ways. These are the hours, these are the hours, these are the benefits. This will never change. But then you've got the international firms who offer something quite different?

Emma Waddingham: 11:49

Yeah, and is that because they can afford to do that?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 11:53

in the main, I think they just know that they have to do it to get the right people. Yeah, I think it's because if you're a top firm in Cardiff, you know you have to do this to compete with another firm in Cardiff or a firm in Bristol or a firm in Cheltenham. So you have to be doing that to make sure that you're either attaining and attracting the right talent.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 12:14

But I think there's firms that we deal with that if they can't compete on pay, they'll make sure that they compete on other things. So they make sure that the hours are 9 till 5.30 and you start at 9 and you finish at half five. You have really, really good maternity benefits. The targets are a lot less, so the whole work-life balance is completely different.

Emma Waddingham: 12:32

Yeah, that's interesting, and so what is obviously pick up on targets, but what else is there that employers are offering, particularly here in Wales? What are the kind of benefits?

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 12:45

So a lot of it. I know we talked about sort of well-being, mental awareness, mental health awareness previously, but some firms are allowing well-being days, so maybe a couple of hours um allocated, um pick up, pick whatever day you want, as long as it works with your team. Take a couple of hours off in an afternoon and do what you know makes you sort of get back down to earth again.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 13:04

Yeah, exactly, um. So I think a lot of conscientiousness around work, life outside of work as well, and supporting people with um counseling courses, you know, having an online platform or online gps and services that, um, you know, will make life a lot easier, rather than having to ring in and say, oh, can I book a doctor's appointment? Actually, why don't you use our portal? It's there to help you. So it's little things internally like that that I think are a lot more achievable now for Welsh law firms. But, yeah, I think, mainly focusing on the individuals professional development courses, not necessarily the ones that will benefit the firm, but maybe ones that will benefit the individual and not just the business overall.

Emma Waddingham: 13:50

Um, it's interesting. You picked up the well-being. I spoke to a quite large firm recently and they said they have the well-being days in place and so I think an individual was going to get a massage or something like that and that's, you know.

Emma Waddingham: 14:02

But that makes them feel better and that's separate to their csr and I think sometimes those CSR days where we mean like going out into the community and and getting involved in that, where the pro bono type initiatives that's different because that's the well-being is very much focusing on the individual's needs, rather than the kind of quasi community corporate allowancesances to kind of give back in whichever way, because that's still representing the firm to do something good, which is great, but it's not necessarily giving that person the individual space and arguably, yes, maybe increased holiday days would allow for that as well. So there's, are we seeing more of a rise in holiday?

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 14:45

on the support staff, I would say so secretaries and, yeah, legal assistants are now being seen as more in line um with the rest of the firm, because it used to be that the owners and partners would have extra days holiday compared to the support staff, but now they're sort of 25 27 days. Most legal secretaries and um lsas are now involved with bonus schemes as well. So, regardless of the fact they don't do billing without that person, without that linchpin person in the middle, would their work be you?

Emma Waddingham: 15:15

know, completely efficient yeah.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 15:17

So I think, yeah, just treating everybody as the same, regardless of sort of title, um, is working well for a lot of firms.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 15:23

I think we've always seen that there's always the support side. There's always been that support, fear and a divide of course with law firms. They've always had less holidays by far compared to the firms, so it's actually nice to see that the salaries have finally gone up on the support side and the holiday allowance has started to come a bit the gap smaller than it probably once was before.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 15:44

Yeah, I think the average is about 25, 27. Now Very few firms do sort of 20, 23 days holiday. Most give you your birthday off, those sorts of things, discounted legal services, but in the main you know health insurance, having your ability to have a spouse or partner on there as well. So yeah, things like you say, elegant currencies, we sort of call them.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 16:08

I think it's always a lot harder for the smaller firms and more high-street firms to be able to cope, because these benefits are a massive cost to any organisation.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 16:17

They are yeah, so I think it's really hard for smaller firms to strike that balance because the market has changed so much. The market is really really good. It's really hard for smaller firms to strike that balance because the market has changed so much. The market is really really good. It's really really competitive. A lot of firms are recruiting Candidates, have so much choice. So if these benefits are attached to the quality of work, the salary, et cetera, that the individual wants well, a firm that doesn't have that benefit then, they're going to miss out.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 16:41

It's an almost immediate pass, isn't it on?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 16:43

that kind of recruitment hunt.

Emma Waddingham: 16:46

And obviously compounded by the fact that we've always had people, new firms start and firms come into work and I know we're particularly talking about Wales here but obviously we've had some very big names coming in in the last 12 to 18 months, with more opening new offices in the next couple of months, and they have that added weight to offer those benefit packages. Now those roles might not be for everybody, obviously, but equally. You know they are going to be held out almost as an aspirational type of job, and that will make it hard.

Emma Waddingham: 17:19

I mean, what kind of advice would you give to firms that you know are great firms? They've got a great culture. Maybe they're hiding under a bishop slightly, um, that that just can't seem to compete. I think it's it's.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 17:34

It's tough, I suppose, in the ever-changing market, but I think something that we do here is asking the staff what they want, doing surveys with the staff and asking well, why? Why do you enjoy working here? What can we do differently?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 17:46

because if they, can't change certain aspects. There's certain aspects of a benefit scheme that they might be able to, might be able to change. Yeah, um, but it is. Money does talk quite often, for the best of the way. The cost of living is the moment and it is a quite a key motivator for a lot of. They might not say it's the main. It's a motivator to them. But actually when you get under the skin of many individuals moving, it does play quite a key key, especially on the support side. You see people moving for 500 pounds, a thousand pounds.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 18:16

When it comes down to black and white, I mean, I had it, um, you know, a couple of weeks ago, and then the decision was made on the fact that it was two extra days holiday.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 18:23

You know, salary like you said wasn't too much of a disparaging between one and the other, but interview processes I would say as well. You know candidates' experiences when they're going for interview. That's really important as well. Yes, money and everything. But as a firm, when you're looking to to hire, you don't just look at the candidates. You know salary expectations or the time they spent in a role. You look at them as a whole individual, their long-term goals and aspirations, and firms need to remember you know candidates are doing that as well. So when, when they're coming for an interview, they're looking at you know how they're treated and spoken to, from the moment they walk into the door and you know to to talking to somebody on reception. So they look at the whole feel of the firm and it's not just the salary that they look at On paper. When you get an offer through, that does affect your decision. But overall you've got the softer elements. You know the culture.

Emma Waddingham: 19:15

Am I the right fit? Is this the right fit for me? Do they get me? I'm moving for a reason. That reason is likely to be money, flexibility and the culture I think I think clients more.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 19:28

I think when I'm when I first started in legal. I think it would be very much the client would be grilling the candidates. But I think they now they realize that it's a two-way process, as the candidates selling their experience to the client, but also the client doing it to the candidates. Yeah, it's a two-way process and a lot of the interviews now are discussions they're informal interviews within within formal settings.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 19:49

And that's how it has been the last few years, because I think clients know now that how it how important it is to make the first, make that first impression yes, that's so important because at the moment, what I'm finding previously it would be a case of candidate with interview oh, here's the outcome.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 20:05

But more and more over the last 12 to 18 months, HR and hiring managers want to know what that candidate's feedback is before they show what their feedback is to a certain extent. Oh interesting, so they kind of know where to position themselves, but I think that's quite a talented thing in regards to people and firms looking at their interview processes, making sure that they are given a good impression, because that person could walk up and go into another firm or go back to their desk and be that category.

Emma Waddingham: 20:33

you're a mouthpiece, in a way you know, have you seen, have you gone to?

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 20:36

any other jobs?

Emma Waddingham: 20:37

yeah, but I didn't, and it's a small world you probably luckily know where they've been interviewing and then obviously you're keeping confidence but, that's not the point, is it so, um, and even when they work with an organization you need, the last thing you want to hear is is that that it's gone down badly, but but yeah, and that's more changing, like the coaching side of things when you're, when you're kind of re-establishing maybe your recruitment interview setup I think it definitely.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 21:06

I suppose, from what we're seeing, is actually kind of like a senior level. If partners are moving, it is about whether equity is an option okay, um, and whether what the management does look like from the, from the top, and whether they'll get an actual say on the department or the firm. Money, yes, is a key, but it's not so much at that kind of top level. It's about what options are actually in front of them moving forward. So it does vary across the board and they always say most people have more than one motivation to leave their role. They probably have two, three motivations. But I think most people that we speak to because I think most of our work is done where people are in work, so it's a headhunt they are fairly happy otherwise, yeah, so it's certain things that these roles offer the candidate.

Emma Waddingham: 22:02

Yes, so it might be equity opportunities.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 22:04

It might be quality of work. It might be the clients that this firm work with are better than where they work at the moment. Culture is important. Flexibility not so much, because it's most of the time when it gets that level you have, that You've probably got that anyway. You have that flexibility, yeah, but I think firms now realise that they they need to be doing everything they best they possibly can to hold on to their talent. This is what we kind of see.

Emma Waddingham: 22:34

And talking about holding on to talent, are the benefits and all these opportunities that you're, if they're slightly changed and being delivered? Are they firm-wide or have they come in for new recruits? How does that affect existing contracts?

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 22:49

Yeah, so it's interesting on that side. There is one firm that we've been talking to um who has said, based on the candidates that you know were introducing and who they're seeing, they are looking to increase everybody's salary within that firm in line with the new staff that are joining.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 23:04

So it's happening slowly. Yeah, um, but I think it's predominantly for the, the new starters that are coming in, depending on the contracts, I guess, that are in place already. But then again you've had a lot of mergers and acquisitions, with these larger firms coming into Wales now, sort of taking over the small to mediums, so they'll benefit from that in that regard.

Emma Waddingham: 23:28

Yeah, it's a tricky balance. And do people talk like, do you find? And do people talk like, do you find? Do people talk about money? Yeah, because we never.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 23:35

I don't know my generation. We never used to.

Emma Waddingham: 23:37

I remember even my kind of mentor, quasi boss, was like no, no, I don't get involved in that you're on your own kid kind of thing, and I didn't even know where to start with a negotiation.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 23:47

It's difficult because I think, I think a lot of people, especially when at a certain level. What can they bring to the firm? It could be relationships, it could be a following. So the salaries are all over the place at that top level, because it all depends on what that individual is going to bring to the firm yeah, I think there's an educated understanding of that but people do tend to talk a little bit more about what they get, yeah, yeah

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 24:11

I think ever since. Um, you know, titles are changing and but the responsibilities? In one frame to another you might have a totally different title, but you're doing the same thing because your title's different. You're on 5k less, so there is a lot more conversations, I think, around that there's always been a discussion around about salary, isn't it?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 24:27

it shouldn't be what that candidate is on, because if they're under underpaid at the moment and the client that they're going to knows that well, when they move they might be underpaid again. It's such a hard negotiation so it's it's what the candidate is looking for to move. Because it shouldn't make a difference what the candidate is on um, because potentially you're discriminated against what that candidate is on yeah, so really, really difficult to position them moving forward because people often know that they might be underpaid in the market. So it's a difficult one.

Emma Waddingham: 25:00

And there's a separate event in this I know that was submitted to a few individuals about creating a mental health and wellbeing event for managing partners who, um, you know, there is a common kind of conversation around gen z and the fact that, incredibly confident, there's a lot of envy by the fact they can go in and ask for particular salaries and say, no, now is my home time, I'm not taking this work off.

Emma Waddingham: 25:25

This is my time that puts a lot of pressure on more senior individuals. Are those questions being asked about the impact of the role and the amount of work that's being done by those higher up in the firm, or is it just?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 25:39

I think now certain firms are having to realise that they have to appeal to the new generation of lawyers. So I think it's kind of gone are the days where you had to do a certain job to earn money. There's so many options now where you can earn a lot of money by not working in professional services Quite quickly.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 25:58

So I think law firms.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 26:00

I went to an event recently. I think law firms are having to realise that they need to appeal to the new generation of lawyers. So that is really, really key, I think. And I think it's difficult for partners managing partners that might have been at the firm for 20, 30 years. They've always done this, so they've always worked five days in the office. So when it covered happened and people started to transition to home, they went oh my god, this is completely different to what they're used to. It's the same now about hours.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 26:26

It's the same about how often they're in the office and the hours that they do, because it're not in the same world that we were five, ten years ago and five ten years down the road.

Emma Waddingham: 26:36

I was being too comprehensive with the day very senior one and she said to me I think AI, there's a lot that can be brought in as an example. Will it replace a lot of work done by lower-grade VMs? Probably, maybe for the better in some ways, but then you need people so it'll be supervised by more senior conveyances. How do you get then from a to b, because ai is doing part of that work.

Emma Waddingham: 27:00

So my concern is how we then train up the next generation to become senior yeah and then, and actually, yes, exactly what you said right, which is our professional service, is going to be as tempting to the next generation as owning a fish and chip shop and a holiday park and other things that actually people are making very good money from, and not just the influencer stuff. You know that's going to peak at some point, but there are lots of other ways in which people spend their money now and value over and above what professional services can offer with competition from, say, pi and tech, and it's going to be a really difficult one for a lot of the high street firms to negotiate.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 27:43

I think. I think we've noticed such an increase in newly qualified salaries.

Emma Waddingham: 27:47

Yeah, huge. I couldn't believe it. I was putting some jobs up. I was like my goodness me.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 27:51

So newly qualified salaries have gone up, but then senior associates might only be on six, seven, £8,000 less Exactly what I was thinking. So senior services salaries haven't gone up. So you might have been appealing to the newly qualified market, but then you've kind of forgotten about the other levels of and this is our succession route, isn recession route isn't it.

Emma Waddingham: 28:18

So if, if that middle market is feeling undervalued, why would they buy into the firm at a later stage?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 28:20

um and so, and we even over the last few months, we've seen that, yeah start to dissolve into other firms. We've seen it. We've seen the knock-on effect that less firms are hiring nqs, less firms are keeping on as many nqs because the salaries have gone up so much they can't afford to keep that many NQs on. There's firms in Cardiff, bristol paying 60,000, 70,000 for newly qualified, isn't there? Well, the level of work that they're carrying out is not at that level, yeah, so how can you sustain that? So it has to crash at some point because it's just not. It's not sustainable for most firms.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 28:48

It's a worry, a sort of flashback to the property recession most.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 28:52

For most of it, it's a worry a sort of flashback to the property recession, you know so it goes itself.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 28:54

I think it was, and that's where the issue is now in terms of lack of good property lawyers because of what happened there is. Is this what's going to happen now, in the next couple of years, like you said? You know that sort of middleman gap? Um, interestingly, going back to jnc, I mean I overheard someone on the train the other day day thinking how it's outrageous that they feel that employers expect their workers to pay to travel to work and pay for the parking. But for me that's just a given. So the mentality of the other generation is an interesting one.

Emma Waddingham: 29:24

And it's so again. We will have another talk on that. I think lots of other people. There's a round table coming here, but I think you know. Um, yes, it's managing expectations but, also the kind to accept the fact that that you can't make it as hard as it was for us yeah but then that doesn't mean that everything's a giveaway, um, because there is a bit, of a bit of a juggle and, um, you know, no, I wouldn't want anyone to have had it as hard as I had it as a very underpaid journalist having to pay to pay London prices to go in on the tube of the train.

Emma Waddingham: 29:56

But equally, you know there could have been, if I'd have been bolder, I think, a bit more legit.

Emma Waddingham: 30:01

I probably would have asked for a little bit more money, just very, very different times, and I think that's why it's such a cultural shock. We are so much more informed now as a society and particularly around jobs and expectations and cultures and our rights and what we can ask for, um, and we're just having to kind of catch up as employers but equally on a very, very difficult and challenging economic climate and all those things don't kind of necessarily create a great, a great fuzz, so um so yeah but but, as you say, going back, it's asking, asking your employees well, what is it that makes the difference?

Emma Waddingham: 30:35

what could we look at more globally? Where are the priorities? What can we afford to do? What can we work collectively to deliver? And also, if we hit x, then we can give you y. Yeah, so that must help. Um, and we talked about existing contracts. Um, so, anything for employee, for potential employees, for candidates to note um, in light of a lot of the new offerings that you know, are candidates going in all knowing, or are there some that perhaps could ask more questions?

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 31:03

I think support I think we get a lot of.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 31:06

I think, the way, the way the market has changed and how the hybrid working has come in now, I think especially more the junior side they want that support. So I think it's really, really important that the support is there, because if you're working two or three days from home and not having that support, you can feel really, really isolated. I think there's there's so many newly qualified to come to us that actually say they want to be in the office five days, yes, or, on the other hand, we get some that want to be fairly remote, which I think it's important. Like anyone, you learn off people in the office. It doesn't have to be senior, but you learn off your peers, isn't it? So I do feel maybe at the more junior end of the market, I think that is where we're going to maybe lose a bit of knowledge, because I think that's really, really key to be around teams and those networks as well that you build up.

Emma Waddingham: 31:47

Yeah, it's so key.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 31:48

So I think, if you are, if the job is hybrid, what's the support like? How does it work? Because we have some, some firms that will have a set day where they're everyone's in the office, or so I think that's really really, really, really important. But um career progression, I think there's so many different levels, there's so many more job types. This is not associate, senior, associate partner anymore.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 32:09

There's a broad range of job titles now managing associate, principal director, partner, legal director, and it's knowing what you have to do to progress. Yes, setting that out, because if a new job title comes in, what where does what does that mean?

Emma Waddingham: 32:25

or is it another barrier towards equity, or so it's not for everyone, like queer people, some people don't want career progression.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 32:32

But if it is important to you, you need to know their levels to where you get to. So if some people get to Parliament and they think, well, we're promised equity, it's not materialised, then that's why they move.

Emma Waddingham: 32:44

So I think that's really important, if that's one of your motivators, to know what it looks like for you as a definitely, and I think more and more firms are trying to map that journey out and then, as we mentioned, in a succession planning roundtable. So when you get, when you have that touch point with a candidate afterwards and you check in with how they're doing and obviously and placement is important for everyone I'll say it's every time it's a recruiter's best interest as much as a candidate to make sure that person stays for a long time.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 33:10

So you get to hear from them, you can hear it in their voice and the experience that they're having, the people that they're meeting. You know the tasks they're getting on with. It's all about their experience. It's all about the day to day. You know, and going back to what you said there, the money is the latter part of. They don't even mention that. Again, you know, it's more so about how they're coming across, how they're being trained, how they're feeling valued, and you know how they're, how they're learning and how they're getting on with the job, and it's all about their experience essentially there.

Emma Waddingham: 33:39

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting isn't it so, even though money is an incentive, the reason they stay yeah, as long as that paycheck keeps coming in, yeah, yeah, they're being looked after and they feel valued.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 33:46

Absolutely good, excellent, so I think if, if you are looking to, for my division anyway, if you are looking to start a, yeah, they're being looked after and they feel valued.

Emma Waddingham: 33:51

absolutely Good, excellent so.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 33:52

I think if you are looking to for my division anyway, if you are looking to start a career in legal or even come as a career change, we are here to tell you about what the potential pathways are, what firms are really looking for. So, even if you're not sure, it's worth having a conversation because there are, like you said, around, so many different routes and so many different titles.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 34:13

Now law firms are different. You know their businesses that they have to get the right people into to grow. So if you have different life experiences from a different industry, that might be what that practice needs at that moment and you've got that impartial knowledge like as you say grand that global understanding of what firms are doing here in.

Emma Waddingham: 34:31

England and in Bristol and London and beyond and the Midlands and to try and kind of place you know the right person to the right role, but give them, you know, honest and neutral feedback.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 34:42

Even the conversations I have, the confidential conversations, where someone comes to me and says am I being paid right, am I being paid okay? And I might say to him actually, you're paid really well. Yeah, this is what you can actually get in the market, which is a lot less than what you're, what you're what you're on at the moment.

Rachel Phillips, TSR Legal: 35:00

So if money's a key motivator for you, I'd actually stay put so we've had.

Ryan Pryce, TSR Legal: 35:01

We've had a client recently that probably 10 years ago, never, never placed, but I kept in contact with them. She's come to us with work and it was all about the opportunity for her. It was never. She was always known that she was paid very well for the market but it was more about the opportunity when she finally moved. So I think I think it's all about in conversation, isn't it? I think it's relationship is key for us fantastic.

Emma Waddingham: 35:24

Thank you both very much for joining me. Yeah, always a pleasure, and hopefully um we'll see you again very soon. But have a lovely summer and thank you too.